They’re also the best, as you’d know if you were at the Women in Secularism conference. Great speakers. Great attendees. Interesting and productive disagreements.
There were a few moments this weekend when Tweets on the conference hashtag really pointed up the difference. If the embed doesn’t work, the Storify is here.
Stephanie Zvan is one of the hosts for the Minnesota Atheists' radio show and podcast, Atheists Talk. She serves on the board of Secular Woman. She speaks on science and skepticism in a number of venues, including science fiction and fantasy conventions.
Stephanie has been called a science blogger and a sex blogger, but if it means she has to choose just one thing to be or blog about, she's decided she's never going to grow up. In addition to science and sex and the science of sex, you'll find quite a bit of politics here, some economics, a regular short fiction feature, and the occasional bit of concentrated weird.
Oh, and arguments. She sometimes indulges in those as well. But I'm sure everything will be just fine. Nothing to worry about. Nothing at all.
“Atheism+ is bullshit! Atheism is just about not believing in god, not anything else! Just because we both don’t believe in god doesn’t mean I have to share your political values! And therefore, I will harass you to the ends of the earth for being an atheist with political views I dislike!”
— MegaSkepticPhilosophyDudeBroNamedAfterAStarTrekCharacter
Political disagreements are fine, as long as they’re civil and well-reasoned. But anyone who personally attacks and physically threatens another person means they not only must have a weak argument, but worse than that, they should probably be under house arrest with an electronic tracking ankle bracelet.
If only it were that simple – everyone is to be calm and civil, and things are going to sort themselves out. It has been discussed many a time on these forums what is problematic about this ideal: civility pleas act as both a means of silencing oppressed groups, and automatically lends a voice to the oppressors. Imagine the following scenario: a large group in your movement/in society is having a calm and reasoned debate on whether you are fully human and should be treated with dignity, and come to the conclusion that until there is scientific proof that this is so, one should reserve judgment and treat you like a second class citizen at best. All very calm and reasoned! At some point, you will want to scream abuse, but every time you get emotional over the terrible disregard of your humanity, you will be brushed aside and scolded for being out of line and uncivil, your outburst merely confirming that you must obviously be as inferior as suspected. Such is the effect of a culture that values civllity above justice.
I have no idea if feminists get it worse than other women, but I suppose you have seen this article already. It is just … insane … it seems women speaking up for anything at all make men very angry and upset. This is about gun control, and the very first example was about how a woman’s views were misrepresented and they doxed her as well, but other men involved were not doxed. Only the women need to be punished apparently:
Sorry I guess my comment was rather off topic, but … i guess I should not be amazed at this behavior anymore these people exhibit who are mad at feminists and other women who speak up.
Does DJ think he’s actually fooling anyone these days? It seems to me that there are two ways to look at him: either you know he’s a jerk and dislike him for it, or you know he’s a jerk but tolerate him because you think he can do something for you. Nobody actually thinks he’s a decent human being, do they?
Nobody actually thinks he’s a decent human being, do they?
Oh, I’m sure there are plenty of people who think he’s a great guy. I’m willing to bet most of those people think they themselves are decent and wonderful human beings, and don’t see his behaviour as any worse than their own.
Poor calibration leads to poor measurements, after all.
I haven’t gotten all the way through the storify yet, but I just cracked myself right up and wanted to share. I was scrolling through the latest What Sara Mayhew Said that’s linked in the post and came to a picture titled Immune of a nude nurse giving herself an injection. I thought wow, this is pretty amazing; I thought all Mayhew did was sketchy, whispy manga. This is the work she should be promoting. Based on my observations of Mayhew, I dislike her and would never want to meet her in person, but the picture was undeniably impressive.
Turns out the artist is Surly Amy, and Mayhew was dissing it, calling it unbelievably ugly. And while art is subjective, her critique of Immune displayed an ignorance of the craft that was rather surreal coming from someone who is said to make a living at it.
Hi, Alice. Sorry I missed your comment in moderation when you made it. Paul is just talking about being surrounded by people and navigating social situations. He works from home in Maine, so a crowded situation like a conference is quite the change. He’s also very self-deprecating, so he was probably…not playing it up, but highlighting the issue.
“Atheism+ is bullshit! Atheism is just about not believing in god, not anything else! Just because we both don’t believe in god doesn’t mean I have to share your political values! And therefore, I will harass you to the ends of the earth for being an atheist with political views I dislike!”
— MegaSkepticPhilosophyDudeBroNamedAfterAStarTrekCharacter
Political disagreements are fine, as long as they’re civil and well-reasoned. But anyone who personally attacks and physically threatens another person means they not only must have a weak argument, but worse than that, they should probably be under house arrest with an electronic tracking ankle bracelet.
@August Berkshire
If only it were that simple – everyone is to be calm and civil, and things are going to sort themselves out. It has been discussed many a time on these forums what is problematic about this ideal: civility pleas act as both a means of silencing oppressed groups, and automatically lends a voice to the oppressors. Imagine the following scenario: a large group in your movement/in society is having a calm and reasoned debate on whether you are fully human and should be treated with dignity, and come to the conclusion that until there is scientific proof that this is so, one should reserve judgment and treat you like a second class citizen at best. All very calm and reasoned! At some point, you will want to scream abuse, but every time you get emotional over the terrible disregard of your humanity, you will be brushed aside and scolded for being out of line and uncivil, your outburst merely confirming that you must obviously be as inferior as suspected. Such is the effect of a culture that values civllity above justice.
p.s. I know that this was not exactly your point, I just wanted to stress that just imposing civility to counter harassment is dangerous.
Alex:
Well said.
This is beyond fucking annoying too.
I’m not sure if I’m being thick here but could someone please explain what Paul Fildago’s tweets are about. I’m confused.
I have no idea if feminists get it worse than other women, but I suppose you have seen this article already. It is just … insane … it seems women speaking up for anything at all make men very angry and upset. This is about gun control, and the very first example was about how a woman’s views were misrepresented and they doxed her as well, but other men involved were not doxed. Only the women need to be punished apparently:
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/05/guns-bullying-open-carry-women-moms-texas
Sorry I guess my comment was rather off topic, but … i guess I should not be amazed at this behavior anymore these people exhibit who are mad at feminists and other women who speak up.
Does DJ think he’s actually fooling anyone these days? It seems to me that there are two ways to look at him: either you know he’s a jerk and dislike him for it, or you know he’s a jerk but tolerate him because you think he can do something for you. Nobody actually thinks he’s a decent human being, do they?
Oh, I’m sure there are plenty of people who think he’s a great guy. I’m willing to bet most of those people think they themselves are decent and wonderful human beings, and don’t see his behaviour as any worse than their own.
Poor calibration leads to poor measurements, after all.
I haven’t gotten all the way through the storify yet, but I just cracked myself right up and wanted to share. I was scrolling through the latest What Sara Mayhew Said that’s linked in the post and came to a picture titled Immune of a nude nurse giving herself an injection. I thought wow, this is pretty amazing; I thought all Mayhew did was sketchy, whispy manga. This is the work she should be promoting. Based on my observations of Mayhew, I dislike her and would never want to meet her in person, but the picture was undeniably impressive.
Turns out the artist is Surly Amy, and Mayhew was dissing it, calling it unbelievably ugly. And while art is subjective, her critique of Immune displayed an ignorance of the craft that was rather surreal coming from someone who is said to make a living at it.
Hi, Alice. Sorry I missed your comment in moderation when you made it. Paul is just talking about being surrounded by people and navigating social situations. He works from home in Maine, so a crowded situation like a conference is quite the change. He’s also very self-deprecating, so he was probably…not playing it up, but highlighting the issue.