…according to the slime pit. Expect to be hearing the story passed around, since people are working very hard to distract from Shermer right now. They’re doing their best to turn the spotlight around and put us on the defensive.
I’ve written four times, I think, about various aspects of having been sexually assaulted at age 15 by the father of the young man I intended to “lose my virginity” to.
- How Deep the Bullet Lies, Part II
- Why #IDidNotReport
- Do You Know How Scary This Is?
- Your Morning Victim Shaming
The short version: While waiting for son to get off work, father drove my friend and I about 40 miles into Wisconsin. After feeding me enough alcohol or something in two rum and Cokes that I later passed out, he declared that a hand job was the price of a ride home. My friend did nothing to help. I still went through with having sex with son. I didn’t tell anyone for decades. I was paranoid about drinking for a very long time, and I still don’t care for rum drinks.
That, of course, is not how it goes in the pit, despite it all being public information.
Matt Cavanaugh: Jeebus! Is there any FtBullie who hasn’t acknowledged clinical depression or bipolar? Svan, I think. She’s just a bitch.
free thoughtpolice: Even if she hasn’t been self diagnosed yet, I’d say she has PZTD. She was raped/taken advantage of when she was a teen and hasn’t forgiven the male race(cis).
Rystefn: Svan has said as much on many occasions. From the details she’s put out there, though, it comes off as a case of teenagers getting drunk and fooling around and Svan deciding years later that even though they were both the same amount of drunk and the same amount of enthusiastic at the time, he was a predator who brutally raped her and she was a poor victim who couldn’t consent. At least, that’s how it looks to me based on what I’ve seen her write about it, anyway. Obviously, my knowledge of the incident is far from complete.
Cunning Punt: Well naturally. You were drunk at the time.
Rystefn: Hey, now! That’s… ok, so it’s entirely true. Unless you’re trying to imply I was the other drunken teenager in that story, in which case, I’m about 30 years too young. Also, I’ve slept with some people I wouldn’t brag about, but even I have standards, and Svan don’t qualify.
What he’s read is the first of the posts above, with all the details therein, in case you want to know how things generally look to him.
Matt Cavanaugh: Iirc, Zvan has related that she was raped as a teen by a boyfriend in her own bedroom.
Steersman [commenting a quote from on the victim-blaming post]: Kind of sucks either way, but what is interesting is that she sort of suggests a real and tangible way that might actually reduce the incidence of rape, at least in the context of drinking.
welch: Cry me a river. I came home blind stumbling drunk at 14. My parents realized that I needed to learn about this shit, so they taught me. I learned about gauging when you’re starting to get drunk, and all the rest of it. Other people can take the option of “not drinking”. Really. Totally an option, and a pretty sensible one.
But this entire “OMG, I DIDN’T KNOW HOW MUCH BOOZE WAS IN THE DRINK” shit is just that. Shit. setting aside things like roofies and similar, one can, and many people do, drink straight vodka all night without passing out or vomiting or blacking out. How? You SIP IT SLOWLY. There’s nothing that requires you to hammer that shit back. There’s no rule. Nothing.
Here’s a pro tip: “No”.
“DON’T BE A PUSS, CHUG IT”
“Okay. Still no. Now fuck off”
it works, It works real fucking well.
As well, there is always the option of not drinking. Unless she wants to prove someone held her down and poured that shit down her throat, she had the ability to not drink anything. Not just “no alcohol” but *anything*. The human body can survive, in general, although not easily, three days without water. It is entirely possible to go the length of a party without drinking anything, if you’re that unsure of who’s pouring. What do you do if you’re really thirsty? Go to the bathroom. They tend to have “sinks”, which are, in the US at least, a well-known source of potable water. Take a leak, drink from the sink, bob’s your uncle.
What no one wants to do is actually stand up and say “No, I”m not going to drink your fucking trashcan punch”, because that requires ACTUAL backbone, which none of these twits have.
Oddly enough, despite having one parent who couldn’t stop drinking and one who wouldn’t start, I had handling my own drinks down pretty well at that point. And it doesn’t answer the question that was in the post about drinking: “More importantly, what could anyone have taught me about drinking that would have told me the difference between someone who wanted to pour me a drink as part of a social event and someone who wanted to pour me a drink as a means to assault?”
Steersman: I can sympathize. However, I think you’re judging others by your own experiences and abilities, not to mention those of your parents. Not everyone is as self-aware as you apparently were at that age or able to judge the consequences of their actions.
As they say, good judgement comes from experience, but experience comes from bad judgement. And “bad judgement” covers a very wide spectrum. Not particularly reasonable, I think, to think that everyone’s introductions to that are the same.
welch: But by the same token, why are people who don’t have to fall off a cliff elebenty times before they learn to watch where they are going bad? That’s the other side. If you did learn to pull your head out of your ass at a young age, or ever really, regardless of reason, you’re some kind of bad person for pointing out that it is in fact possible to not be fucking stupid year after year, or that a little thinking can avoid problems.
I’m sorry she went through some bad experiences, but me not giving her “I COULDN’T STOP DRINKING” excuse some great elevated status doesn’t mean I think rape is okay. It means i’m not particularly sympathetic to people who give alcohol and social pressure magical properties. I will ABSOLUTELY cop to that. Yes, it is a bit of a pain in the ass to not drink when everyone else is. but even outside of my parents, it never seemed like a good idea to be high or drunk in a strange situation. However, growing up in Miami instead of east fuckolio in Farmville does tend to show one why this is a good thing.
Rape and being stupid about drinking are two different issues, even though they can intersect.
Steersman: I still think you’re judging her by your experiences, not hers. While I don’t know all of the details of the “conversations” you two have had, and I’ll concede that she might be acting a little self-indulgent – “[Welch is] … just one more person who doesn’t want me to talk about me …” – I think you’re completely missing the boat in not considering that her experience on drinking – at 15 one might emphasize – might have been more along the line of “Oooh, getting tipsy! Isn’t this fun!” instead of “Christ! Losing control! Bogies at 12 o’clock high! Evasive actions!” that you apparently think every 15 year old should have in those circumstances.
Rather unreasonable to think that she should have known about threats and consequences of actions that neither she nor, apparently, her parents had any inkling of. People, particularly adolescents or young adults, learn from experience, the worst consequences of which they are lucky – as with Abbie – or unlucky – as with Stephanie – to evade or not. Or they learn them from their parents – as with 16bitheretic – who may have learned them in more painful ways. But still unreasonable, I think, to judge people without considering the circumstances they were in at the time they made their choices or acted the way they did.
Again, I don’t know the specifics of whatever it is you might be referring to there. However, that quote of her that I provided above really doesn’t look like much of any “I COULDN’T STOP DRINKING” excuse. At most a “How can I be faulted for not knowing something I had no way of knowing?” “excuse”. Which seems to be a reasonable response to some MRA-type accusations, and not any insistence that “alcohol and social pressure [has] magical properties”. Maybe you’re reading more into her position and statements than is justified.
Guest: Well, because she was 15, and the behavior was illegal for her, and the reason why it is illegal, alcoholism, drunk driving, overdosing, makes her vulnerable to rape and other things, is well known and certainly not a secret.
There have only been a zillion afterschool specials on this.
So Stephanie, I aimed a gun at my face and shot it, because other people told me it would help me lighten my load. How can I be faulted for not knowing something I had no way of knowing?
This doesn’t excuse rape.
It also doesn’t excuse willful stupidity.
16bitheretic: I remember having it symbolically drilled into my brain by my mom that you always watch if someone makes you a drink and you never leave your glass unattended. If you do leave your glass somewhere out of sight you never drink from it again after that.
But of course, we all know she was totally pre-emptively victim-blaming me, amirite
Steersman: Those different perspectives on “victim-blaming” are indeed a puzzle, like two completely different langauges or “incommensurable” concepts. You might “enjoy” reading several of the comments over on Sarah Jones’ site which question my analogous argument that people do have some responsibility to lock their homes and that that argument does not constitute “victim blaming”.
Although in passing, I think you’ve indicated that you’re probably 20 years younger than Zvan which probably speaks to the different threats that parents have to warn their kids about. Although Zvan’s parents apparently dropped the ball in not warning her of those of her time. But both cases are probably a reflection of the “arms race” between predators and prey that, unfortunately, plays out in human societies as well as in “nature, red in tooth and claw”.
Dave: I can totally understand not knowing how your body reacts to large quantities of alcohol at 15, particularly if you grew up in ‘Murrica! where many parents are not as sensible as Welch’s were. (On the other hand, by 30, you should either have that shit down cold or not drink.) But if she gets the benefit of the doubt on the inexperience of youth, why doesnt her counterparty? Why is he assumed to have malicious intent in pouring her a strong drink? Why isnt is simply assumed that a teen boy doesnt have great experience as a bartender? That was certainly the case when it happened to me — I got overserved** when I was 16, a buddy of mine thought, “Dave is a tough guy, bet he likes a strong drink” and poured me a scotch and soda that was 80% scotch in a 16 oz glass. Perhaps there are other elements of the story that havent been shared here that explain this, but it seems to me that if we are excuse her inexperience, we should also excuse that of the others in the story. But from what I can see, she knows she got drunk, ended up in bed with the boy who was pouring drinks and assumes this was part of his nefarious plan all along.
** The one time in my life where that term is appropriate. There have been others where I overindulged, but that was the one time where I was overserved.
Steersman: Would you believe, “The Patriarchy”? But good question. Maybe because people aren’t really human until they’re at least 30. Takes time, I think, to develop a sense of empathy without which we can be rather careless, callous or nasty, rather than being malicious, i.e., have the intent to do harm.
Since this guy was about 50, maybe you have another explanation?
Guest: Juding by her pictures, I’m almost certainly older than Zvan, and I remember getting anti-alcohol, anti-drug messages in elementary school in the 60s.
Alcohol and alcoholism, drugs, and drunk driving have been around for quite sometime.
We may not expect 15 year olds to be adults, but there are tons of behaviors we do expect them to know not to do, regardless of how rare the consequences are and how beneficial the payoffs can be.
Staying out all night long, drinking alcohol, gambling, smoking, shop-lifting, hitch-hiking, driving, ditching school, dating much older people,
You may not like my gun analogy but the point holds, Stephanie and 99% of all 15 year olds, even back in the sixties know that alcohol abuse is dangerous — the “How can I be faulted for not knowing something I had no way of knowing?” excuse just can’t hold up rationally.
Steersman: Ok. Then either she was one of the 1% who fell through the cracks, or she was born and raised in another country. Or maybe she’s bullshitting, and that story was just a rationalization to cover her culpability in engaging in something that she knew she shouldn’t have been doing – I’ve run across some arguments that that is a common cause of false rape charges.
Kind of difficult to know for sure without a lot more details. But absent those I don’t find it impossible to believe that she was unaware of the possible consequences of those actions of hers.
Actually, having two drinks over the course of a couple of hours isn’t generally considered “alcohol abuse”.
welch: I freely admit to being limited by my own experiences, and what those have taught me. As is every single other person on the planet. However, given her eagerness to judge me based on what she thinks, I have no problem returning the same. When she decides to show a little understanding that hers is not the only correct worldview as it applies to people who disagree with her, I’ll consider returning the consideration. Until then, what I said about her stands. I’m sorry her parents didn’t raise her right, and I’m sorry that she had to wait until some magical older age to start actually learning anything. Not my fault.
Um, I hate to break this to you, but the dangers of getting drunk in unfamiliar circumstances are hardly new, nor were they hidden away in some sekret time capsule only opened in dublin a few years ago. This is the kind of shit people have dealt with since well, *alcohol*. if she was raised in deliberate ignorance, I feel bad but that still doesn’t make me a bad person for not elevating her problems in my world.
I dunno. How old do you wait for your kids to be before you teach them about practical shit? Evidently, in Zvan’s world, you never do that, you just demand the world not have any bumps or bruises? I grew up in a rough city and had some rough times. Ironically, none of them were alcohol-driven. Just people being assholes. If i was “lucky” at all, it’s that my parents also lived in the real world and taught me how to deal with things as they were, not some fucking fantasy land. Anytime she wants to play “woe is me”, I bet i can fucking keep up with her sad-assed childhood with ease. The difference is, I left my childhood behind decades ago. She is still wallowing in it. She should watch the pilot for “Deep Space Nine”. It applies.
However, in the end, given how relentlessly unforgiving and unsympathetic she is to anyone not in full agreement with her on everything, it..pleases me to return the favor to her. Should she wish that to change, then she is perfectly capable of not being such a raging cock herself.
And that’s quite enough of that. So now you know where this came from, when you hear somewhere around that I made up a story about being raped after consensually binge drinking in my bedroom at a party and fucking a guy who was too young to know how strong to mix drinks. Also, it’s all my fault because I haven’t been nice to John Welch.