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Aug 21 2013

In Which I Falsely Report a Rape

…according to the slime pit. Expect to be hearing the story passed around, since people are working very hard to distract from Shermer right now. They’re doing their best to turn the spotlight around and put us on the defensive.

I’ve written four times, I think, about various aspects of having been sexually assaulted at age 15 by the father of the young man I intended to “lose my virginity” to.

The short version: While waiting for son to get off work, father drove my friend and I about 40 miles into Wisconsin. After feeding me enough alcohol or something in two rum and Cokes that I later passed out, he declared that a hand job was the price of a ride home. My friend did nothing to help. I still went through with having sex with son. I didn’t tell anyone for decades. I was paranoid about drinking for a very long time, and I still don’t care for rum drinks.

That, of course, is not how it goes in the pit, despite it all being public information.

Matt Cavanaugh: Jeebus! Is there any FtBullie who hasn’t acknowledged clinical depression or bipolar? Svan, I think. She’s just a bitch.

Wrong from the get-go. Twice actually.

free thoughtpolice: Even if she hasn’t been self diagnosed yet, I’d say she has PZTD. She was raped/taken advantage of when she was a teen and hasn’t forgiven the male race(cis).

Rystefn: Svan has said as much on many occasions. From the details she’s put out there, though, it comes off as a case of teenagers getting drunk and fooling around and Svan deciding years later that even though they were both the same amount of drunk and the same amount of enthusiastic at the time, he was a predator who brutally raped her and she was a poor victim who couldn’t consent. At least, that’s how it looks to me based on what I’ve seen her write about it, anyway. Obviously, my knowledge of the incident is far from complete.

Cunning Punt: Well naturally. You were drunk at the time.

Rystefn: Hey, now! That’s… ok, so it’s entirely true. Unless you’re trying to imply I was the other drunken teenager in that story, in which case, I’m about 30 years too young. Also, I’ve slept with some people I wouldn’t brag about, but even I have standards, and Svan don’t qualify.

What he’s read is the first of the posts above, with all the details therein, in case you want to know how things generally look to him.

Matt Cavanaugh: Iirc, Zvan has related that she was raped as a teen by a boyfriend in her own bedroom.

Steersman [commenting a quote from on the victim-blaming post]: Kind of sucks either way, but what is interesting is that she sort of suggests a real and tangible way that might actually reduce the incidence of rape, at least in the context of drinking.

welch: Cry me a river. I came home blind stumbling drunk at 14. My parents realized that I needed to learn about this shit, so they taught me. I learned about gauging when you’re starting to get drunk, and all the rest of it. Other people can take the option of “not drinking”. Really. Totally an option, and a pretty sensible one.

But this entire “OMG, I DIDN’T KNOW HOW MUCH BOOZE WAS IN THE DRINK” shit is just that. Shit. setting aside things like roofies and similar, one can, and many people do, drink straight vodka all night without passing out or vomiting or blacking out. How? You SIP IT SLOWLY. There’s nothing that requires you to hammer that shit back. There’s no rule. Nothing.

Here’s a pro tip: “No”.

“DON’T BE A PUSS, CHUG IT”

“No”

“PUSSY!”

“Okay. Still no. Now fuck off”

it works, It works real fucking well.

As well, there is always the option of not drinking. Unless she wants to prove someone held her down and poured that shit down her throat, she had the ability to not drink anything. Not just “no alcohol” but *anything*. The human body can survive, in general, although not easily, three days without water. It is entirely possible to go the length of a party without drinking anything, if you’re that unsure of who’s pouring. What do you do if you’re really thirsty? Go to the bathroom. They tend to have “sinks”, which are, in the US at least, a well-known source of potable water. Take a leak, drink from the sink, bob’s your uncle.

What no one wants to do is actually stand up and say “No, I”m not going to drink your fucking trashcan punch”, because that requires ACTUAL backbone, which none of these twits have.

Oddly enough, despite having one parent who couldn’t stop drinking and one who wouldn’t start, I had handling my own drinks down pretty well at that point. And it doesn’t answer the question that was in the post about drinking: “More importantly, what could anyone have taught me about drinking that would have told me the difference between someone who wanted to pour me a drink as part of a social event and someone who wanted to pour me a drink as a means to assault?”

Steersman: I can sympathize. However, I think you’re judging others by your own experiences and abilities, not to mention those of your parents. Not everyone is as self-aware as you apparently were at that age or able to judge the consequences of their actions.

As they say, good judgement comes from experience, but experience comes from bad judgement. And “bad judgement” covers a very wide spectrum. Not particularly reasonable, I think, to think that everyone’s introductions to that are the same.

welch: But by the same token, why are people who don’t have to fall off a cliff elebenty times before they learn to watch where they are going bad? That’s the other side. If you did learn to pull your head out of your ass at a young age, or ever really, regardless of reason, you’re some kind of bad person for pointing out that it is in fact possible to not be fucking stupid year after year, or that a little thinking can avoid problems.

I’m sorry she went through some bad experiences, but me not giving her “I COULDN’T STOP DRINKING” excuse some great elevated status doesn’t mean I think rape is okay. It means i’m not particularly sympathetic to people who give alcohol and social pressure magical properties. I will ABSOLUTELY cop to that. Yes, it is a bit of a pain in the ass to not drink when everyone else is. but even outside of my parents, it never seemed like a good idea to be high or drunk in a strange situation. However, growing up in Miami instead of east fuckolio in Farmville does tend to show one why this is a good thing.

Rape and being stupid about drinking are two different issues, even though they can intersect.

Steersman: I still think you’re judging her by your experiences, not hers. While I don’t know all of the details of the “conversations” you two have had, and I’ll concede that she might be acting a little self-indulgent – “[Welch is] … just one more person who doesn’t want me to talk about me …” – I think you’re completely missing the boat in not considering that her experience on drinking – at 15 one might emphasize – might have been more along the line of “Oooh, getting tipsy! Isn’t this fun!” instead of “Christ! Losing control! Bogies at 12 o’clock high! Evasive actions!” that you apparently think every 15 year old should have in those circumstances.

Rather unreasonable to think that she should have known about threats and consequences of actions that neither she nor, apparently, her parents had any inkling of. People, particularly adolescents or young adults, learn from experience, the worst consequences of which they are lucky – as with Abbie – or unlucky – as with Stephanie – to evade or not. Or they learn them from their parents – as with 16bitheretic – who may have learned them in more painful ways. But still unreasonable, I think, to judge people without considering the circumstances they were in at the time they made their choices or acted the way they did.

Again, I don’t know the specifics of whatever it is you might be referring to there. However, that quote of her that I provided above really doesn’t look like much of any “I COULDN’T STOP DRINKING” excuse. At most a “How can I be faulted for not knowing something I had no way of knowing?” “excuse”. Which seems to be a reasonable response to some MRA-type accusations, and not any insistence that “alcohol and social pressure [has] magical properties”. Maybe you’re reading more into her position and statements than is justified.

Guest: Well, because she was 15, and the behavior was illegal for her, and the reason why it is illegal, alcoholism, drunk driving, overdosing, makes her vulnerable to rape and other things, is well known and certainly not a secret.

There have only been a zillion afterschool specials on this.

So Stephanie, I aimed a gun at my face and shot it, because other people told me it would help me lighten my load. How can I be faulted for not knowing something I had no way of knowing?

This doesn’t excuse rape.
It also doesn’t excuse willful stupidity.

16bitheretic: I remember having it symbolically drilled into my brain by my mom that you always watch if someone makes you a drink and you never leave your glass unattended. If you do leave your glass somewhere out of sight you never drink from it again after that.

But of course, we all know she was totally pre-emptively victim-blaming me, amirite

Steersman: Those different perspectives on “victim-blaming” are indeed a puzzle, like two completely different langauges or “incommensurable” concepts. You might “enjoy” reading several of the comments over on Sarah Jones’ site which question my analogous argument that people do have some responsibility to lock their homes and that that argument does not constitute “victim blaming”.

Although in passing, I think you’ve indicated that you’re probably 20 years younger than Zvan which probably speaks to the different threats that parents have to warn their kids about. Although Zvan’s parents apparently dropped the ball in not warning her of those of her time. But both cases are probably a reflection of the “arms race” between predators and prey that, unfortunately, plays out in human societies as well as in “nature, red in tooth and claw”.

Dave: I can totally understand not knowing how your body reacts to large quantities of alcohol at 15, particularly if you grew up in ‘Murrica! where many parents are not as sensible as Welch’s were. (On the other hand, by 30, you should either have that shit down cold or not drink.) But if she gets the benefit of the doubt on the inexperience of youth, why doesnt her counterparty? Why is he assumed to have malicious intent in pouring her a strong drink? Why isnt is simply assumed that a teen boy doesnt have great experience as a bartender? That was certainly the case when it happened to me — I got overserved** when I was 16, a buddy of mine thought, “Dave is a tough guy, bet he likes a strong drink” and poured me a scotch and soda that was 80% scotch in a 16 oz glass. Perhaps there are other elements of the story that havent been shared here that explain this, but it seems to me that if we are excuse her inexperience, we should also excuse that of the others in the story. But from what I can see, she knows she got drunk, ended up in bed with the boy who was pouring drinks and assumes this was part of his nefarious plan all along.

** The one time in my life where that term is appropriate. There have been others where I overindulged, but that was the one time where I was overserved.

Steersman: Would you believe, “The Patriarchy”? But good question. Maybe because people aren’t really human until they’re at least 30. Takes time, I think, to develop a sense of empathy without which we can be rather careless, callous or nasty, rather than being malicious, i.e., have the intent to do harm.

Since this guy was about 50, maybe you have another explanation?

Guest: Juding by her pictures, I’m almost certainly older than Zvan, and I remember getting anti-alcohol, anti-drug messages in elementary school in the 60s.

Alcohol and alcoholism, drugs, and drunk driving have been around for quite sometime.

We may not expect 15 year olds to be adults, but there are tons of behaviors we do expect them to know not to do, regardless of how rare the consequences are and how beneficial the payoffs can be.

Staying out all night long, drinking alcohol, gambling, smoking, shop-lifting, hitch-hiking, driving, ditching school, dating much older people,

You may not like my gun analogy but the point holds, Stephanie and 99% of all 15 year olds, even back in the sixties know that alcohol abuse is dangerous — the “How can I be faulted for not knowing something I had no way of knowing?” excuse just can’t hold up rationally.

Steersman: Ok. Then either she was one of the 1% who fell through the cracks, or she was born and raised in another country. Or maybe she’s bullshitting, and that story was just a rationalization to cover her culpability in engaging in something that she knew she shouldn’t have been doing – I’ve run across some arguments that that is a common cause of false rape charges.

Kind of difficult to know for sure without a lot more details. But absent those I don’t find it impossible to believe that she was unaware of the possible consequences of those actions of hers.

Actually, having two drinks over the course of a couple of hours isn’t generally considered “alcohol abuse”.

welch: I freely admit to being limited by my own experiences, and what those have taught me. As is every single other person on the planet. However, given her eagerness to judge me based on what she thinks, I have no problem returning the same. When she decides to show a little understanding that hers is not the only correct worldview as it applies to people who disagree with her, I’ll consider returning the consideration. Until then, what I said about her stands. I’m sorry her parents didn’t raise her right, and I’m sorry that she had to wait until some magical older age to start actually learning anything. Not my fault.

Um, I hate to break this to you, but the dangers of getting drunk in unfamiliar circumstances are hardly new, nor were they hidden away in some sekret time capsule only opened in dublin a few years ago. This is the kind of shit people have dealt with since well, *alcohol*. if she was raised in deliberate ignorance, I feel bad but that still doesn’t make me a bad person for not elevating her problems in my world.

I dunno. How old do you wait for your kids to be before you teach them about practical shit? Evidently, in Zvan’s world, you never do that, you just demand the world not have any bumps or bruises? I grew up in a rough city and had some rough times. Ironically, none of them were alcohol-driven. Just people being assholes. If i was “lucky” at all, it’s that my parents also lived in the real world and taught me how to deal with things as they were, not some fucking fantasy land. Anytime she wants to play “woe is me”, I bet i can fucking keep up with her sad-assed childhood with ease. The difference is, I left my childhood behind decades ago. She is still wallowing in it. She should watch the pilot for “Deep Space Nine”. It applies.

However, in the end, given how relentlessly unforgiving and unsympathetic she is to anyone not in full agreement with her on everything, it..pleases me to return the favor to her. Should she wish that to change, then she is perfectly capable of not being such a raging cock herself.

And that’s quite enough of that. So now you know where this came from, when you hear somewhere around that I made up a story about being raped after consensually binge drinking in my bedroom at a party and fucking a guy who was too young to know how strong to mix drinks. Also, it’s all my fault because I haven’t been nice to John Welch.

58 comments

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  1. 1
    Pteryxx

    …Gaaah. I’m sorry they’re STILL putting you through this crap. You’ve done and continue to do such amazing work speaking up as a survivor.

    *leaves all the hugs*

    …now to read the rest of it.

  2. 2
    Claudius

    Real class acts those people are. Yup, rape of a 16 year old is really funny stuff. They must have thought Steubenville was hilarious.

  3. 3
    Flewellyn

    ICK. I feel like I’ve just stared into the abyss.

    How sad it is when STEERSMAN comes off sounding like the most reasonable and compassionate person in the conversation?

  4. 4
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    @Flewellyn:

    I was going to just say that same thing.

  5. 5
    screechymonkey

    It’s fascinating to me how they keep repeating that, oh no, of course they’re not saying that drinking excuses rape, but it shouldn’t excuse you either: excuse you for what? What did you do that was wrong, that would require excusing?

    That’s a rhetorical question, of course. I know the real answer is “women who have sex should feel shame, and can’t be allowed to wriggle out of that shaming by ‘crying rape’”

  6. 6
    Jason Thibeault

    They wonder why people might be willing to cut them out of conversations as “unhelpful” and “fucking toxic”.

  7. 7
    skeptifem

    ugh these jackasses aren’t worth your time.

    I’ve refuted a lot of shit with slymepit people (they keep attributing one of my blog posts to an FTBlogger), REPEATEDLY, and it doesn’t make a difference. They parrot whatever sounds the most damning to them at the time. If they bothered actually looking into anything then they wouldn’t have the beliefs that they do.

    I hope you know that these comments reveal that the posters have a huge problem, not you. Deciding that doubting and shit talking rape victims online is a great hobby is something I can’t quite wrap my head around.

  8. 8
    maudell

    *TW – rape apologetics*
    It’s amazing how they cannot process information when it comes to rape. How your story can be summarized into “two teens getting equally drunk having equally enthusiastic sex in their own bedroom” is a mystery. Betrays how they think “rape” and “sexual assault” means “she regretted consensual sex the next day.” Of course, under this framework, men cannot possibly be raped, and other genders don’t exist.

    It’s amazing how there is an overlap between people who think sexual harassment isn’t a problem and those who think the great solution to rape is to put women in cages. Women! Take responsibility! You shouldn’t drink (being passed out is consent to any passerby)! You shouldn’t go out and have fun (having fun makes men think they can have sex with you)! You shouldn’t wear anything that shows skin, even in the Summer (showing skin, especially if it makes you feel sexy, is a clear invitation to all men, because biology)! You shouldn’t be too friendly with men (or they’ll be in the friendzone and will become angry)! You shouldn’t travel! You shouldn’t be single (some men will assume they can take what is not already owned by another man)! You shouldn’t speak publicly, unless you totally agree with us about everything (you are inviting rape threats and sexual violence by speaking publicly)! You should not like sex (duh, otherwise rape is the logical conclusion)! You should stay within my strict definition of what a woman is (if you are queer, you will incite corrective sexual coercion)! But don’t be too pretty (also invites rape)! And don’t be too ugly (because I’ll have contempt for you and think you cannot possibly get raped)!
    If you follow my guidelines and are still raped, it’s just because you wanted it and then regretted it!

    As rational thinkers following the evidence, these winners know how to prevent rape! The ultimate proof is Afghanistan, where sexual does not exist because women are covered, married, stay at home and don’t speak. Afghanistan is what we should all strive for, as master-skeptics! It looks delightful over there. Women taking responsibility! (side note on the slight chance a pitter bothers reading and thinking at the same time: women face a huge amount of sexual abuse in Afghanistan. Statistics are hard to come by, because it’s the women’s fault. You ca go to jail or face death penalty if you were raped, because it’s adultery. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#Afghanistan)

    Let’s end with a fun case of women regretting it the next day: http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/the-ghost-rapes-of-bolivia-000300-v20n8

    Aaah, personal responsibility works so well. It’s so worth not having a life anymore. I wonder why so many people refuse to hold hands with those people to combat creationism together! I guess if I start holding hands I could be responsible if I get raped, so maybe I can just send a man to hold hands with them on my behalf. Gee, why are all those people not realizing that we are all allies in the skeptic movement?

  9. 9
    leftwingfox

    How sad it is when STEERSMAN comes off sounding like the most reasonable and compassionate person in the conversation?

    That’s his schtick.

  10. 10
    A Hermit

    Wouldn’t want to bother getting the real story before passing judgement would they?

    But they’re the RealSkeptics…

  11. 11
    PatrickG

    That welch character has some issues with empathy, doesn’t he? Yeesh.

  12. 12
    PZ Myers

    Wait. People keep telling me that the Slymepit is a nice boisterously friendly place, and that it is no worse than FtB. You mean they lied?

    And yeah, that’s Steersman’s schtick: long-winded disingenuous rambling in which he pretends to be the reasonable, objective observer while defending truly odious beliefs and behavior. Don’t fall for it.

  13. 13
    PZ Myers

    Also: damn you for making me read that shit.

  14. 14
    Sudo Me

    I have been wondering… what’s the sentence after “you shouldn’t have gotten drunk” or “you should have said no to more alcohol.”

    Is the implication: then you wouldn’t have been attacked? or is the implication: then you would have been able to fight off the attack.

    Just one of those questions that’s been popping into my head recently.

  15. 15
    Jean

    They should realize that the gun analogy should be that someone else is holding a gun to a drunken person’s head and pulling the trigger. It has nothing to do with a self inflicted wound. Would they still say that it’s stupid to get drunk (regardless of how it happened) and not expect to have your head blown up?

  16. 16
    oolon

    Sorry you have to put up with obsessive shitweasels with nothing better to do than discuss every intimate detail of your life in order to find some cracks. Or create them if they fail to find anything real. Sad assholes with nothing more productive to do. The “true” skeptical movement according to Emery Emery and his ilk *retch*

  17. 17
    shari

    ouch. Some of this you told me, a lot of it you held back and I don’t blame you.

    I blame the heinous excuse for carbon waste for assaulting you. After getting you drunk (which, hello, as a parent, is reprehensible to start with.)

    I am so sorry you have to truck your painful past out to help illustrate the damage dealt to sexual assault victims.

    I am sorry anyone does.

    I am furious that truth about assault does NOT ONE THING to convince these jackmonkeys to stop victim blaming and START changing rape culture.

  18. 18
    smhll

    I still remember your post about the original event. I’m really sorry that an adult that you trusted took advantage of your teen self.

    I am also really sorry that you have to read this vile drivel and in such large, smelly piles.

    And, though I hate to say it, +1 reading comprehension and +1 empathy points to Steersman who (ok, I skimmed near the end), expressed understanding for a 15 year old who doesn’t have a lot of experience with alcohol, rather than just hurling blame like the others did. Thank you. (I’ll even stay after class and write “The Slymepit is not a monolith” on the chalkboard, but only once.)

  19. 19
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Wow, I’m really sorry that you have to read this shit.
    It’s just plain vile.

  20. 20
    jenBPhillips

    So much to be appalled by. I’ll just say that I’m sorry that you have to continue to deal with this degree of toxic stupidity , and thank you–again–for persevering.

  21. 21
    Marcus Ranum

    I was listening to Greg Brown’s “Slow Food” while I read this thread and that’s the only reason I survived.

  22. 22
    Wowbagger, Designated Snarker

    I hope JT has read this; it should give him an idea of the sort of people he’s inviting into his circle with the one hand while he pushes away the reasonable people with the other.

  23. 23
    Jackie, all dressed in black

    I’m sorry that these people are such twisted, pitiful examples of humanity, Stephanie and I’m sorry that their latest person to delight in lying about and victim blaming is you. This is awful, even for for those scummy low-lifes. That’s truly some immoral, reality challenged, sleazy, behavior. I don’t know how they rationalize their denial of reality or their blatant misogyny. Honestly, if they had a hint of a conscience there is no way they could do things like this. It’s just foul.

    Good for you for calling them on their odious bullshit.

  24. 24
    carlie

    I’m so sorry that they’re being so awful.

  25. 25
    Stacy

    They’re terrible human beings. They’re also shit-stupid.

    The fact that the “Skeptic” movement includes people who could opine like this–about an incident the basic facts of which they haven’t bothered to ascertain!–tells me these folks wouldn’t know critical thinking if it bit them in the ass, then walked around to the front and introduced itself.

  26. 26
    MissNoneya

    Can we be a little more honest here? I bet ya won’t post this gem:

    “Stephanie Svan was kind enough to read the ‘Pit and then quote me on her blog. Amusing, because she portrays my post as though it’s in a timeline of posts where I’m mocking some rape that happened to her a long time ago or something, when I was actually posting in a general conversational response to a story posted here by Abbie Smith. (BTW Stephanie, I didn’t even know you had been raped until you tried to make it look like I was accusing you of faking a rape, makes alot of fucking sense, huh?)

    Apparently Svan thinks everything on this forum can be twisted into an attack on her, even if we’re not talking about her. Quotemining FTMFW!”

  27. 27
    MissNoneya

    Oh wonderful, my comment is in moderation, so people in the comments will continue acting as if she even knew she was raped.

  28. 28
    Stephanie Zvan

    So that would make you, what, 16bitheretic? Abbie posted her story about accidentally not getting drugged as part of this discussion. Incidentally, her story received a very different reception. Go figure. Your comment is here because the reply to it (and the consequent replies to that) don’t make any sense without it. That’s all. Also, it doesn’t change its meaning by being taken out of context, which makes it quoting, not quotemining. Yawn.

  29. 29
    biogeo

    That was sickening to read, but thank you for sharing it anyway, so that those of us fortunate enough not to have to keep track of this dreck have some idea of just how low these people are willing to sink.

  30. 30
    cityzenjane

    “Take a leak, drink from the sink, bob’s your uncle.”

    Are you ******fucking***** kidding me?

  31. 31
    cityzenjane

    “Rape and being stupid about drinking are two different issues, even though they can intersect.”

    Intersectionalism, you’re doing it wrong.

  32. 32
    WMDKitty -- Survivor

    Am I the only one who feels like they need a scalding-hot shower after reading that?

  33. 33
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    It’s astounding how the pitters don’t even get the basic facts of the story nor Staphanie’s name right after reading this very post…

  34. 34
    hoary puccoon

    Honestly, what is their point?

    It sounds like somebody said, “Hey, guys, here’s an idea! Let’s lie about something that can be easily checked!!”

    And all the rest of them went, “Yeah! Wow! Hey, great idea! Let’s do it!!”

    But apparently nobody said, “Um, guys, why would you want to do that?”

  35. 35
    doubtthat

    @26

    Oh, so the insulting dim, invidiously malicious conversation occurred in a thread about something else?

    That…what? How was that a defense? “Well, I did say Holocaust was made up, but the original post was about the music of Tiny Tim, so stop quoting me out of context!”

    The hell is wrong with you people?

  36. 36
    shari

    @34…..nobody said.

    amen.

    Does nobody there check their motives? or would that be un-skepty….

    (sad snark)

  37. 37
    Jessie

    I’m so sorry you continue to be attacked by these bullies. They lack empathy, compassion and skepticism, being blinded by hatred and their own arrogance to see everything through a biased filter.

    Deep Rifts – never deep enough.

  38. 38
    ewanmacdonald

    First off, Stephanie, I am sorry that not only you had to go through this, but that you’re now left defending yourself in the face of ridiculous, baseless attacks like these.

    Secondly… why, exactly, are we supposed to want to share a movement with the slimepit people? Why make peace with them? Why co-operate with them, if this is their behavior?

  39. 39
    R Johnston

    @ewanmacdonald:

    Secondly… why, exactly, are we supposed to want to share a movement with the slimepit people? Why make peace with them? Why co-operate with them, if this is their behavior?

    I think it’s instructive to look at lefty support for Ron Paul. The reasoning goes something along the lines of “sure, Ron Paul is wrong about everything except being anti-war, and sure, his reasons for being anti-war are themselves extremely problematic, but merely being anti-war is the mostest importantest thing a politician can be so I am going to promote him, tell people to vote for him, and get angry with people who say it’s a bad idea to propagandize in favor of a xenophobic goldbug racist misogynist who wants to get the federal government out of the way so he can turn the states into 50 separate theocracies.”

    There will always be people otherwise well meaning people who want to make common cause with odious miscreants who happen to agree with them on a matter of importance, even when their agreement is based on incompatible premises. Fortunately there’s no need to satisfy such people in their irrational desire for alliance. There can be no alliance with the pitters when at their best they do the right thing for wrong and immoral reasons. When they stumble into not being destructive pitters are to be ignored, and when they are being their usual destructive selves they are to be condemned. And the lefty Ron Paul supporters otherwise well-intentioned atheists who want to heal deep rifts who would make common cause with pitters can be worked with when they aren’t busy pushing for reconciliation, but they can never be trusted with any position of authority.

  40. 40
    Markita Lynda—threadrupt

    Ugh! Your experience was a major betrayal by a supposedly friendly adult. I’ve had the “hand job in the wilderness” pulled on me, too, but at least it was with the guy I was dating (first or second date, and also the last) and not his dad. I was creeped out enough by it–and I’ve never told anyone. No alcohol was involved.

    I would like to give your young self a non-invasive hug.

  41. 41
    Anthony K

    I bet ya won’t post this gem:

    Bet ya won’t drag your sorry, useless ass back here to acknowledge how fucking tenuous a grasp of reality you have.

  42. 42
    F [i'm not here, i'm gone]

    Bloody hell, they argue against a straw Stephanie, using idealized (straw, still) versions of themselves in a completely straw universe they have erected. Must be nice!

    16bitheretic: I remember having it symbolically drilled into my brain by my mom that you always watch if someone makes you a drink and you never leave your glass unattended. If you do leave your glass somewhere out of sight you never drink from it again after that.

    Makes me wonder if mom had a particular experience that prompted the transmission of this bit of drinking wisdom. As if every “good” parent has this specific conversation with their kids. (Or any other specific subject, for that matter,) After-school specials? Are you fucking kidding me?

  43. 43
    Anthony K

    16bitheretic: I remember having it symbolically drilled into my brain by my mom that you always watch if someone makes you a drink and you never leave your glass unattended. If you do leave your glass somewhere out of sight you never drink from it again after that.

    Just to be clear, the pitters are the ones who think Schrödinger’s Rapist is a feminazi conspiracy, right?

    Well, I guess Schrödinger’s Rapist works well enough when you’re determined to victim blame.

  44. 44
    Al Dente

    R Johnston @39

    And the lefty Ron Paul supporters otherwise well-intentioned atheists who want to heal deep rifts

    I take it Michael Nugent’s efforts to promote a “dialog” are now dead.

  45. 45
    elspeth

    I… did not finish reading that. I’m not sure if it’s the clueless misogyny, the unremitting personal assaults on you, or the sheer disconnect of “WTF universe do these people come from?” but there is just too much of it. Bleah.

    Virtual hugs from me are yours always, whenever and ifever you want them. (And not, obvs, if you don’t.)

    Related, but tangential: Has anyone else noticed that there are people who respond to something they very probably have read (and linked to) and totally miss/ignore/forget PROMINENT parts of whatever they are commenting on? I’ve seen this so often in online discussions (including some actually civil ones) that I’m starting to look for it in offline life (no results on that yet). I have no trouble believing that there are people who are perfectly willing to lie outright, separately from and in addition to putting their own special spin on shit — but I don’t think they all are “lying.” It’s as if they really have read something other than what they are responding to.

    I’m wondering what might be happening in these cases, if I’m right and this is not deliberate? It looks to me that people really are capable of reading a story about a trusted adult taking a minor across a state line, getting her drunk, and demanding sexual favors — and honestly think they read a story about a teenaged girl drinking too much with a teenaged boy and having enthusiastic drunken teen sex. I’ve noticed this since a couple years ago, and have tentatively put it in the category of delusion. Love to hear esp. from those who know a thing or two about human brains if there is a psychological or neurological explanation for this.

  46. 46
    splen

    @45. elspeth:

    Related, but tangential: Has anyone else noticed that there are people who respond to something they very probably have read (and linked to) and totally miss/ignore/forget PROMINENT parts of whatever they are commenting on? I’ve seen this so often in online discussions (including some actually civil ones) that I’m starting to look for it in offline life (no results on that yet). I have no trouble believing that there are people who are perfectly willing to lie outright, separately from and in addition to putting their own special spin on shit — but I don’t think they all are “lying.” It’s as if they really have read something other than what they are responding to.

    Its just confirmation bias. Facts that tie into the narrative spouted over there tend to be remembered and repeated ad. nauseum. Contradicting facts tend to be forgotten about entirely or bitterly opposed.

    The narrative, of course, is that the slymepitters themselves are the toughest, most world-weary, sexually experienced, cleverest, funniest, best looking, responsible-adult skeptics on the planet. Also the bloggers at FTB are hypocrites who make stuff up. If they aren’t making stuff up then any of their problems couldn’t possibly compare to the kind of things that the slymepit warhorses have been through and they are stupid to complain anyway because “bootstraps”.

    In reality the slymepitters are all terrible, thick-as-shit losers who deserve each others company.

  47. 47
    hoary puccoon

    elspeth @ 45–

    I think part of it is like the game of telephone. The first person reads something and writes about it. The second person never reads the original, only the first person. The third person may only read the second person, and so on….

    Now, it could happen that one of the early readers either misunderstood or misremembered her original post. In this case, though, I think it’s unlikely that somebody simply failed to realize that the father of a teenager could not be fifteen years old himself, and that an event that happened in another state could not have happened in Stephanie’s bedroom. So it’s reasonable to conclude that somebody early on invented a libelous story about Stephanie that was vaguely on the same topic as her actual post.

    After that, people who vaguely remembered that Stephanie had written about a sexual assault read the libel and assumed that was the real story. And since they wanted to believe bad things about her, they never bothered to check the facts.

    In any case, the pitters are gleefully making fools of themselves.

    And yes, ewanmacdonald and R Johnston, deep rifts are looking better and better all the time.

  48. 48
    blindlabyrinth

    We made a video documenting the misogyny of the slymepit so that no one could ever doubt that there is misogyny in the skeptic movement. Note: MAJOR POSSIBLE TRIGGERS.

    Much of this video was made possible due to the documentation of slymepit activities by Stephanie Zvan.

    Thank you,
    Blind Labyrinth

    [Edited to remove embedded video. See the link in the comment below. -SZ]

  49. 49
    Pteryxx

    For y’all’s information, blindlabyrinth is not a troll. Seconding the trigger warning, though.

  50. 50
    Pteryxx

    …and that video really should not be embedded. Don’t embedded videos autoplay for folks that don’t have Noscript blocking enabled? *shudder*

    Direct link: youtube link

    PSA: plain links to youtube will embed automatically; prevent this by putting them in tags as noted below.

    <a href=”URL inside here”> name of link here </a>

  51. 51
    Stephanie Zvan

    Thanks, Pteryxx. I removed the embedded video.

  52. 52
    David Marjanović

    Don’t embedded videos autoplay for folks that don’t have Noscript blocking enabled?

    No. Still, removing it was almost certainly a good idea. I followed the link and… *shudder*

  53. 53
    Ronja Addams-Moring

    Stephanie, I am so sorry that they are trying to put you through still more vile excrement. Your openness and courage when facing something that toxic is amazing. FWIW, you have my bow.

  54. 54
    David Marjanović

    How sad it is when STEERSMAN comes off sounding like the most reasonable and compassionate person in the conversation?

    Just to drive that point home:

    Steersman: Would you believe, “The Patriarchy”? But good question. Maybe because people aren’t really human until they’re at least 30. Takes time, I think, to develop a sense of empathy without which we can be rather careless, callous or nasty, rather than being malicious, i.e., have the intent to do harm.

    …It took Steersman till he was 30 to develop a sense of empathy???

    And he hasn’t even noticed that other people are generally not like that???

    That’s scary.

  55. 55
    freemage

    Stephanie: All the sympathy I have to offer.

    And as for the posts…

    The Rifts need to be deeper, wider, and equipped with anti-aircraft guns.

  56. 56
    blindlabyrinth

    PSA: plain links to youtube will embed automatically; prevent this by putting them in tags as noted below.

    name of link here

    So noted, and we apologize.

    Blind Labyrinth

  57. 57
    doubtthat

    I’ve always liked this story because of the implication for religions, but it seems relevant here:

    There was about a 200 year period of Japanese history, from the early 17th century until Commodore Perry floated into Yokohama, where the policy of Sakoku was enforced: no foreigners in, no Japanese out. The effort included the elimination of Christianity.

    Prior to that period, Dutch missionaries had successfully converted a large number of folks, and Nagasaki was a central location. All of the Christians went underground during the Sakoku period.

    When Japan opened up again, the missionaries traveling to Nagasaki were excited when they heard about these Christians that had endured such brutality. It would have made a wonderful story, but upon meeting the groups, they found that in just those two-hundred years, the form of Christianity practiced by the underground believers had evolved in some bizarre religion that had little in common with European Christian beliefs of any sect. The Japanese Christians, of course, wanted to keep practicing their version, and the European missionaries had to pressure them into abandoning their unique practices.

    I think about that story every time a group of slimepitters descend on a thread and start rambling about these incoherent, inscrutable ancient grievances. I never know what they’re talking about, it’s all code and references, and when you finally figure out what they’re whining about, it’s always an amazing perversion of what actually happened. They’re the internet’s Lost Causers, constantly rewriting history to suit their ends.

  58. 58
    Walton (shiningartifact)

    Ugh. The slimepit is awful. I’m so sorry you’re having to put up with this personal abuse. There is never any circumstance in which it is okay to make fun of someone’s sexual assault.

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