On Making Merry »« Gaps in the Net

Still Not Disagreement

Don’t like the “personal” posts, the arguments between atheists? Go read something inspirational instead.

Consider yourself warned.

Justin, it’s time to knock this shit the fuck off.

I don’t care what you think about your opponent in an argument.

I don’t care what you think of Greg’s behavior, toward you or anyone else. You do not call harassment “an argument”. This is not argument.

@ @ Greg Laden even vies for attention by leaking this sex tape with Stefunny: http://t.co/HfmiXTL1 I mean, dude, dignity
@Mykeru
Mykeru
@ @ That is, until the @ @ sex tape leaks. Then they have a funny video too #atheismplus
@Mykeru
Mykeru

That’s harassment. It’s still harassment whether someone blocks it or not.

This is not argument.

@ Laden might now my name, but I bet he can't prnounce it. Like that will stop me? Fuck them. I bet CFI will start asking for ID.
@Mykeru
Mykeru
@ So Greg, now that you have done your usual doxing. No reason for us not to meet. What's your schedule like?
@Mykeru
Mykeru
@ The CoSG has people in Minn. I will have to drop them a line.
@Mykeru
Mykeru
@ @ @ I promise, as the non-existant God is my witness, I will kick Greg Laden in the cunt.
@Mykeru
Mykeru
Hey, where do you think the best place is to find Bin Laden? The process server will want to know.
@Mykeru
Mykeru
@ @ Or, I realized we can kill off 1/3 of them if we nuke Minnesota.
@Mykeru
Mykeru
ATTENTION TWITTER: Any one here NOT want to kick Greg Laden's ass? We're getting a queue going.
@Mykeru
Mykeru
Anyone want to organize a MMA fight between me and Laden?
@Mykeru
Mykeru

When something like this happens to you, it’s something that’s supposed to be taken seriously, even when it comes from a colleague with whom you were on good terms before you stuck up for his harassers. Does it not count when it comes from someone who has been harassing Greg for over a month?

Do not call it an argument. Do not ever call it an argument. If you want to say that someone shouldn’t ever try to track down the person harassing them and threatening them, then have enough spine to stand up for that position instead of putting up a post claiming to be able to read someone’s mind. Especially when you’ve been joking with the harasser/threat.

@ I would assume he would not be interested in a fair fight. More of the sneak attack type. Hard to say.
@RckBeyondBelief
Justin Griffith

Seriously, stop. You don’t have to like Greg. You don’t even have to acknowledge that you were begging for his forgiveness after you received the email you later called a threat. Just stop propping up people who are doing worse than he did to you because they’re doing it to him.

Comments

  1. chrisho-stuart says

    I think you are making it much too difficult to call out what really was seriously nasty behavior by Greg.

    Justin’s point is that no matter what has gone on before, posting a private address like that is way WAY out of line. He’s right about that.

    It doesn’t matter that the other people are worse than Greg (which I accept for the sake of argument and because I think they probably are worse). It becomes a problem when the perception of teams means that you simply cannot be critical of obviously bad behaviour because of some kind of team thing going on.

  2. says

    Laden shouldn’t have posted the guy’s address. It was wrong when Justin Vacula did it to Surly Amy, it’s wrong now.

    But boy oh boy, Justin’s giving this asshat a lot of sympathy despite his repeated threats, any one of them just as bad as the one Laden levied at him. Justin says he doesn’t know much about Mykeru just before he mentions Greg’s history of “direct threats of violence.” Maybe he should express some basic curiosity before firing off another volley.

    Wrongness and disgust all around. Ugh.

  3. Someone jumped the shark says

    That’s not harassment, it is mocking, deserved mocking. Laden’s reputation is in tatters after his stupid doxxing antics. Why do you always defend him Stephanie?

    By your definition, what you did to Justin Vacula is also harassment, so don’t be a whiney hypocrite.

  4. says

    Tom, I did not post anything that had not been previously publicly known and circulated, so no, it was not wrong. Michael Cortese has been harassing people and doing crappy things to people on the internet for quite some time. He doesn’t deserve even the tinniest consideration in my mind, but that is irrelevant here.

    It is strange that Justin never mentions any of the things he told me about himself in the hour long phone conversation he insisted we have back at the time. He spoke proudly of things that would make Mykeru look like a saint. What a bunch of horrid people.

    “just as bad as the one Laden levied at him” … are you referring here to my rhetorical statement that I wanted to kick Justin in the ass? Do you know what that expression means, why people use it? It is something one says to or about someone who really annoys you. You don’t actually kick them in the ass. You must have known that, right? Why do you insist on not letting that, which everyone knows, apply to me? What is the motivation for your willful ignorance?

    Within a week or so after that ordeal, I had lunch with a group of seven people, including me. I was thinking about that phrase … “I want to kick so and so in the ass” when one of the people at the table said it of someone. So I started to notice. Over the next hour the phrase was used five more times by a total of five different individuals (not me, in case you were wondering) about this or that person.

    Time would eventually tell that not one of those people kicked anyone in the ass. As everyone knew at the table, as everyone knows whenever they hear such a thing unless they chose to willfully not understand the phase as you have chosen to do here, it was not a threat “just as bad as” anything “levied” to or by anyone.

    Stephanie I had not seen these tweets or the links they point to before. How could it possibly be that Michael Cortese is even more of a horrid person than I was thinking?

  5. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    Laden shouldn’t have posted the guy’s address. It was wrong when Justin Vacula did it to Surly Amy, it’s wrong now.

    That’s about as rational as saying that if someone HAD put a bullet in Adam Lanza’s head halfway through the shooting they’d be morally no better than he is.

    Context matters.

  6. Matthew Hodson says

    I’ve never heard the phrase “I want to kick [SpongeBob] in the ass” used before.
    I have heard the phrases:
    “I want to kick [SpongeBob]‘s ass”, meaning physically attack or beat in a contest like say poker; and
    “[SpongeBob] needs a good kick up the bum/butt/ass”, meaning someone needs to get their act together, speed up or generally get on with a certain task.

  7. Anthony K says

    Tom, I did not post anything that had not been previously publicly known and circulated, so no, it was not wrong.

    Not wrong? Bullshit.

    If it was publicly known and circulated, then what was your purpose in posting it?

    You fucked up here, Greg.

    This in no way validates any of the bullshit the Slymefuckers engage in, but you fucked up. If you have a legitimate reason for knowing someone’s identity and address, you can share that with the proper authorities.

  8. says

    Whatever the poster formerly known as Ian Brown said.
    No, Greg, not an excuse.
    Better said, it’s exactly the excuse Vacula used to post Amy’s address.
    And the fact that one of them is a depicaple asshole and Amy isn’t doesn’t mean it makes it ok.

    But still, that’s doesn’t make this whole fuck OK, doesn’t make the harrasment of you ok, or the threats. Justin’s post is a wonderful example of how selectively representing snips of the truth ammounts to a lie.

  9. says

    I am with Anthony and Giliell on this. I am sorry Stephanie, but you are wrong, and there is no excuse for what Greg did. One never publishes peoples’ address.

    Justin is generally wrong about everything related to this subject, but in this particular case, he is right.

    We slam other people for excusing this sort of thing, and I’ll be damned if I am going to excuse it from someone on “my side”.

  10. says

    ehm, Kristjan, I don’t think I agree with what you’re agreeing with me ;)
    I agree that it was wrong of Greg to publish the address.
    But that doesn’t mean we have a “both sides are equally wrong” situation.
    And it’s pretty hypocritical of Justin who still goes on and on and on about the “kick his ass” comment by Greg to support people who make far more outrageous statements.
    So, what is it, Justin, is it a serious and frightening threat or is it just some saying?

  11. says

    Well I’m in two minds, Mykeru is a funny one. He indulges in tough guy threats as a means to ‘troll’ his opponents, I found him mainly a bit of a sad act on the pit when he was threatening to hunt me down and ice pick me. I never took him seriously….. One thing I did take seriously was his dislike of being d0x’d. Me, Aratina and Ophelia had a little twitter exchange where it was mooted that he was a Franc Hoggle sock as he had recently appeared and to be fair does sound a lot like Franc at times. I looked him up and found his name as Greg says its out there — I only said he was not Franc, not who he was… So I did not and would not d0x him for some sad internet ‘threats’. He was seemingly quite upset at the thought that I or Aratina/Ophelia were going to “d0x” him. So I did spend a bit of time ignoring him after stating I would not “d0x” him. Was not convinced his supposed worry about it was all an act given his trollish nature but gave him the benefit of the doubt.

    It is not easy to spot if he is being serious about his threats as part of his shtick is to make them appear to be serious! So I can understand someone, Greg maybe as I’m not sure why he d0x’d him, taking those threats seriously… So in some ways it was likely to happen as he even posted on the pit that he had been d0x’d a while back by a right-wing group and his name was on the internet.

    Final nail in the coffin might be my suspicion that this is all a troll anyway as he doesn’t care about his name being out there. At the bottom of Mykeru.com ->

    Text, graphics and code ©1998-2004 Mykeru.com (Michael Cortese), under an Attribution-NoDerivs-NonCommercial Creative Commons license

    So unless Greg posted his address as well it is not much of a d0x… I suppose Mykeru is like me, uses a nym for posting but I’m not anonymous by any stretch given my name and location is on my blog. This wouldn’t stop him trying to get some martyr points out of a “d0x” with his pals in the pit… I wouldn’t be surprised if Greg has put his life in danger by it or some such :-)

  12. says

    … Ahh for some reason missed people saying “address”… That’s not on IMO if his full address was posted… The pitters enjoy making veiled threats as they know what village I live in. I wouldn’t want my postal address on there as there are fools who would subscribe me to x,y or z magazine for “fun”.

  13. says

    I am sorry Stephanie, but you are wrong

    Wrong about what? That Justin needs to stand up and call this threats and harassment before he puts on the high-and-mighty act?

  14. says

    Stephanie, what Mykeru was harassment, and Justin shouldn’t have joked around with him.

    Posting Mykeru’s former address and employment information, in public, however, was wrong for the following reasons:

    1) Someone could use the information to harass or even harm Mykeru. Sure most FTB readers wouldn’t harm the man, but this was posted in public on Twitter, so anyone could see it.

    2) Posting his former address puts an innocent family at risk for harassment.

    3) It plays into the “FTB Bullies” meme. Sure Greg is no longer a member, but some of FTB’s enemies aren’t above using guilt by association. So Greg’s actions hurt everyone in the network.

    4) It undermines efforts to stop harassment. How can we be outraged over someone publishing Surly Amy’s address, and then be expected to defend someone else posting someone else’s address? Remember, Amy’s address was found using publicly available information. That still doesn’t make it right.

    By all means, fight back against the harassers. Just don’t post their personal addresses. That crosses a line.

  15. jose says

    This Laden person is a piece of work, isn’t he? I read he phoned ERV’s boss or something like that some time ago? Guys, don’t do that.

    As for the twitter moron I’d just report and block, no big deal.

  16. says

    To everyone telling Stephanie she’s wrong for defending Greg’s actions: could you kindly tell us where she defended Greg’s actions here?

    Reading comprehension is your friend.

  17. says

    Actually, jose, it was an email, and scientists do, in fact, sometimes do that over issues of professionalism.

    Of course, Greg = piece of work while Mykeru/Michael Cortese threatening and serially harassing and threatening on Twitter = just any old moron tells me an awful lot about where you started.

  18. jose says

    Well, someone being an obsessive pest on twitter is easily dealt with, you don’t need to find out who he is to get rid of him, let alone to spread that info. Just report and block. Now, if the person starts calling on the phone, sending letters etc, that’s a whole different thing and police should be notified.

    When we don’t want to bother reading someone on comment threads we killfile the person; we can do the same thing on twitter by reporting and blocking.

    Tbh I think FtB wastes time with their haters in a way no other network does. Nobody can look at their output and conclude it’s just honest disagreements and healthy exchange of ideas; that they’re haters is beyond question. Let ‘em chatter, haters are powerless in their little corner of the internet anyway so who cares.

  19. Anthony K says

    Laden’s reputation is in tatters after his stupid doxxing antics.

    So should Vacula’s and Paden’s reputations then be too.

  20. Anthony K says

    Let ‘em chatter, haters are powerless in their little corner of the internet anyway so who cares.

    It’s the easiest thing in the world to tell others how they should deal with being bullied and harassed.

  21. says

    Tom, I did not post anything that had not been previously publicly known and circulated, so no, it was not wrong.

    This is the same defense Justin Vacula gave when he did the same thing to Surly Amy. It doesn’t matter that it was publicly known and circulated, it doesn’t matter that Amy clearly did nothing wrong while Mykeru did, it matters that you saw fit to draw attention to his home and such. That you don’t consider it wrong is depressing to me.

    “just as bad as the one Laden levied at him” … are you referring here to my rhetorical statement that I wanted to kick Justin in the ass? Do you know what that expression means, why people use it? It is something one says to or about someone who really annoys you. You don’t actually kick them in the ass. You must have known that, right? Why do you insist on not letting that, which everyone knows, apply to me? What is the motivation for your willful ignorance?

    I’m not being willfully ignorant, though I think you might be being disingenuous. It may be something that some people say to people who really annoy them, but it’s not something I’d say. Maybe “dude deserves to have his ass kicked” or “I wish someone would kick that guy’s ass” or even “I’d like to kick his ass.” Not “I’ll kick your fucking ass” (I’d link Justin’s post, but I don’t want to give that asshole the traffic. It’s easily found on the Google machine), which even under the best of circumstances, even to someone who is likely to be completely charitable, can be interpreted as a threat. “I’ll kick your fucking ass” is not some kind of generally-accepted metaphorical idiom–at least, not where I’m from, but then, we don’t play “duck, duck, gray duck” down here either–it’s not “I’ll knock you down a peg or two” or “I’ll teach you a lesson” or something else that has some plausible deniability. If one of my students were saying “I’ll kick your fucking ass” to another, I’m not going to laugh it off as a meaningless rhetorical statement not meant to betray any kind of violent intent.

    But then, I wouldn’t find “I will kick Greg Laden in the cunt” or talk of nuking Minnesota any more idiomatic, and I think the repetition and vileness of Mykeru’s threats and harassment mark him as clearly the more disgusting one here. But posting his address to someone other than, say, the police for making clear threats? That’s not right.

    Azkyroth:

    That’s about as rational as saying that if someone HAD put a bullet in Adam Lanza’s head halfway through the shooting they’d be morally no better than he is.

    I don’t really see the context making this acceptable. I think it’s stooping to their level. I think it, at best, acts as an implicit threat, and that just gives the assholes ammunition to use the same tactics next time they perceive some idiotic slight like they did with Amy. The high road would have been reporting the asshat to the proper authorities and maybe notifying him of it, not (essentially) saying “I know where you live.”

  22. says

    Jose: “Well, someone being an obsessive pest on twitter is easily dealt with, you don’t need to find out who he is to get rid of him, let alone to spread that info. Just report and block.” Not true. Reporting does nothing, there is no functioning “block” on twitter. Then, there’s this:

    http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/12/24/michael-cortese-writes-reviews-of-sungudogo/

    Those of you who sit in judgement of me, thanks very much for that. I assume you’ve had similar experiences as me, Stephanie, Rebecca, others; that is having a cottage industry grow entirely for the purpose of harassing you.

    Jose, I did not “phone abbie smith’s boss.” I did do something though, and what I did was perfectly legit, professional, and appropriate. And, what I did was none of your business. I promise you that Abbie would be better off not having a public conversation about that, because the issue that I addressed was dealt with. Further public conversation about that would only be harmful to her.

    And for the record, although the info on Mykeru was generally public knowledge, it didin’t have to be. It only had to be legally obtained. There is not, apparently, a rule on the internet that one can obtain an anonymous identity and use it to try to do as much damage to a real life person as possible, obsessively, for years. And, as long at that is OK, and clearly it is, it is also OK to reveal the identity of that person, as was done after much discussion about Franc Hoggle a few months back.

    After the Franc Hoggle mess, and PZ Myers revealed his identity, I think a lot of us decided that the “keep the harassing horrid asshole’s identity sacred no matter what” rule was abrogated. Every single anonymous identity that exists only for the purpose of harassment is open to being revealed because of those actions.

    Those of you who are saying otherwise are wrong. You are part of the problem, not the solution.

  23. Anthony K says

    None of what you wrote was a defence, Greg.

    And for the record, although the info on Mykeru was generally public knowledge, it didin’t have to be. It only had to be legally obtained. There is not, apparently, a rule on the internet that one can obtain an anonymous identity and use it to try to do as much damage to a real life person as possible, obsessively, for years. And, as long at that is OK, and clearly it is, it is also OK to reveal the identity of that person, as was done after much discussion about Franc Hoggle a few months back.

    Again, what was your purpose in revealing Mykeru’s address?

  24. says

    Hiding behind an anonymous identity is a tool of this sort of bully. Revealing his identity is a tool to fight him. I find it hard to believe that you don’t comprehend that.

  25. Anthony K says

    Hiding behind an anonymous identity is a tool of this sort of bully. Revealing his identity is a tool to fight him. I find it hard to believe that you don’t comprehend that.

    I ask, for the third fucking time, Again, what was your purpose in revealing Mykeru’s address?

    Quit with this vague Ollie North “I done what I had to do” shit.

  26. says

    Since my longer comment is still held up, let’s try this. Greg, do you recognize a difference between posting someone’s name and posting their address? Do you recognize the implied threat in posting someone’s address? Is the phrase (which I’m not saying that you said) “I know where you live” as innocent as “I’ll kick your ass”?

    I don’t really have a big problem with outing the guy’s name (especially if it was readily available) though I don’t care for the precedent, and though I see lots of situations where it would cause actual harm to good people. But the address thing seems more than a bit beyond the pale. Do you see that people here are drawing a distinction between the two?

  27. says

    I do agree hiding behind an anonymous identity is a tool of these bullies… His name is one thing, but going to the extent of finding his address and posting that when Surly Amy had the same treatment is not a great plan. As Anthony says, what is the aim of that action?

    I say here on Justins post, Mykeru will be laughing all the way to the Slyme-kudos bank with this one. Having Greg Laden d0x and by implication threaten you is like having all your Xmas’s at once in the pit. He can be witch of the year!

    BTW you can see him on Twitter making sure he is on Phawrongula as ‘Witch of the Week’…. More points won in the game as far as he is concerned.

  28. jackiepaper says

    Greg is being harassed and bullied in much the same way Jamie Kilstein was/is and I think for the same reason. He pissed off team misogyny. There is a post in the slime pit suggesting they stop harassing Greg for fear that he might suicide. The first response to it? paraphrase, “Not until he stops being a cunt”. They will target him until he “stops being a cunt”. They want him to stop doing what exactly in order for him to stop being a cunt? Because this didn’t start because Greg threatened to kick the ass of the same man who likes to laugh up a good “kick in the cunt” joke. He did not frighten or disturb these people until they felt they just had to remedy his “cuntiness” by terrorizing him to the point that at least one person involved thought he might kill himself. He dared be a man who is also a feminist. That is how he was being a “cunt” who needed to be shut up, by threats, lies, shaming and death if unnecessary.

    So get off his damn back. He’s not the aggressor here.

    Go look at the comments after Justin’s obnoxious post on RBB. Please note how the some of the commenters seem to believe that Greg was being “provocative”. He wanted this to happen. Justin seems to believe Greg was secretly hoping to be cherry picked and harassed so that he could reap all that sweet internet attention (I’m not really sure what he was supposed to gain.). Sorry, but those notions smack of other notions I have seen alot lately from misogynists who tell women and their allies to shut up or they’re asking for it. Just recently Rebecca Watson was accused of only saying it was rape to force a drunk person to have sex with you because she is, her detractor presumed, planning to have drunk sex in order to “cry rape”. (But not because that is rape. Oh no, that’s just silly fembrain talk.) Yep, that is not an uncommon sentiment to see from team misogyny. They seem to believe she wants to ensnare some poor rapist just like Greg wants to ensnare some poor misogynist cyberbully. The people saying these things, really believe it. Trust them. They fully believe they are victims/heroes for standing up for rape jokes and sexist pseudoscience while calling feminists hysterical cunts. (Because it is just so funny!)
    So, their targets can expect to be vilified even as they are victimized, unless they go along to get along. Then they won’t be such cunts that need raping, smiting, beating, harassing, abusing. Once they shut up and take it with a smile, the world will be right again and team misogyny can stop putting uppity women and their allies in their place. Won’t that be nice? No more need for rifts!
    This attitude is toxic. It is dangerous. It is vicious and has no place in any community.
    Fuck that. noise. Don’t tell people being treated to this shitshow of bullying and threats to play nice. I don’t need them to learn to shake it off. I don’t need them to be thick skinned and charitable to their bullies. I need people to stop bullying and harassing them. Greg is not the problem. Ophelia, PZ, and Rebecca are not the problem. Jen and Greta are not the problem. Bigots who get off on bullying others are the problem.

    Now here come people saying Greg should have been smarter, fought back more gracefully. He should have been … He should have…whatever. He was the one going through this. There is no comparison to Vacula’s doxing Amy. Amy had not been actively trying to rattle Vacula or claiming to have made porn of him and his friends. She was not an internet stalker with a slimepit full of cretins cheering her on. She was an artist representing a charity who spoke out about her treatment in the community ( for daring to want harassment policies) and was then punished by misogynist shitheads for doing so. Greg is not Vacula in this situation. If he’s got more in common with anyone, it’s Amy. I am sick to death of people acting as though there is a “both sides are doing it” sort of equality to be seen here. There is not.

  29. Ichthyic says

    Well, someone being an obsessive pest on twitter is easily dealt with, you don’t need to find out who he is to get rid of him, let alone to spread that info. Just report and block. Now, if the person starts calling on the phone, sending letters etc, that’s a whole different thing and police should be notified.

    No.

    times have changed; the internet is now an extension of who we are for a great many of us. When someone invades your “internet space” and hounds you with personal threats, that IS the same as someone calling you on the phone or sending you letters. Even the justice system is finally starting to catch up on that.

    It’s all a bit confusing, because this is literally a brave new world. However I firmly believe, based on participating in usenet long before there even was an “internet”, that things really have changed drastically. people do have good reasons for feeling that their personal space has been invaded when they are harassed on the internet now.

    It can’t simply be dismissed as “irrelevant”.

  30. says

    Yeah just read Jason Thibeault’s article, he makes a good point… I guess assuming there is an “aim” other than a reaction to harassment is not that fair of me so sorry for that. By the points and game I mean that there is no need to feel sorry for Mykeru as getting a threat from Greg was his aim all along – it has been his modus operandi on his blog when he was goading right wing gun nuts and he is still playing the same game.

  31. says

    jose
    Would you like Abbie Smith to be in charge of your daughter’s career as a scientist and her to be responsible for her wellbeing and safety?
    I wouldn’t.
    I wouldn’t want anybody to be in charge of her career who would judge her not by what she actually does in the lab but by what she does at the weekend in her free time.
    I wouldn’t want her to be responsible to handle my daughter’s complaints about male collegues calling her bitch and twat and cunt.
    Seriously, i wouldn’t want this person in any position where she has power over people.

  32. Ichthyic says

    Fuck that. noise. Don’t tell people being treated to this shitshow of bullying and threats to play nice. I don’t need them to learn to shake it off. I don’t need them to be thick skinned and charitable to their bullies. I need people to stop bullying and harassing them.

    +1

    It’s going to take time for people to realize the actual damage done when they treat the internet as if it were a bully’s playground.

    hell, it’s not like we don’t still have a problem with bullying in meatspace!

  33. Anthony K says

    I’m not asking anyone to play nice. I’m not claiming both sides do it, or both sides are just as bad.

    I’m asking people not to post other people’s addresses online as implied threats.

  34. Ichthyic says

    it has been his modus operandi on his blog when he was goading right wing gun nuts

    goading people who really like guns and don’t typically pause for thought is probably not wise.

    to put it mildly.

  35. Ichthyic says

    Right. Putting “on the internet” at the end of a sentence does not invalidate the rest of the sentence.

    right, to put it much more succinctly.

    :P

    good catchphrase, btw.

  36. says

    Anthony K:

    I’m not asking anyone to play nice. I’m not claiming both sides do it, or both sides are just as bad.

    I’m asking people not to post other people’s addresses online as implied threats.

    +1

  37. D Pitman says

    Hey Stephanie
    I never knew you were Justin’s mom. You know you should take some parenting classes or there is gonna be no one around to wheel you around the park when you get old so you can yell at the ducks. I also was unaware that you were Greg Laden’s nanny. Greg sure does need a lot of attention doesn’t he? I hope whoever is payin you to suffer rather than do it themselves realizes all the work you do standing up for Greg when he threatens the other kids. Ok, well I sure learned some stuff today and it’s a good thing too cause if I didn’t know your relationship with these guys I woulda thought you were just being a bitch again sticking your nose into other people’s business and telling people what to do like you think you are an annoying not so bright queen or somethin. I’m glad that isn’t the case. Merry Christmas!

    Oh and I thought the sex tape was good, next time maybe use different lighting, just sayin.
    Your friend
    -reap

  38. says

    BTW, I think it is rather funny that Mykeru will be the last to point out that that is not his address. He has not lived there in years. But that would make my sins so much less severe.

    After someone does what Mykeru has done, they are up for grabs. No one here has the right to place bully rules as limits on others. Go back and look at the tweets Stephanie posed, and click though to the links, and then really ask yourself, do you want to defend Mykeru? If you do, what kind of person does that make you?

  39. freemage says

    This just seems like one of those clusterfucks that drags down everyone involved.

    1: Mykeru’s harassment is appropriately called out as such. It’s not a valid ‘argument’, or anything like it, and he’s a vile little piece of work. Justin would be well-advised to cop to the poor language use and apologize, at least to Stephanie (who as far as I can tell, didn’t do a damn thing wrong in all of this). The word makes Mykeru’s behavior seem more legitimate than it could possibly be, ever.

    2: Removing his anonymity is a valid step in de-fanging him. Tying his vile tweets to his ‘legitimate’ online identity is a fair level of unmasking someone, and he pretty clearly deserved it.

    3: Posting the address and the photo of his home (even if, y’know, the right address and home had been posted) was slime-tactics, however, and Laden deserves every bit of criticism he gets for that.

    4: The fact that apparently he got it wrong, and was posting the address of an ex-wife, and possibly her former address at that? Utterly contemptible.

  40. Anthony K says

    After someone does what Mykeru has done, they are up for grabs.

    Then why not just track him down yourself and beat the shit out of him or shoot him?

    Or were you hoping someone else would?

    What other reason do you have for posting his address online?

    do you want to defend Mykeru?

    Is that what you think I’m doing?

    If you do, what kind of person does that make you?

    Someone with some sense of integrity.

    And Reap, when is Al Stefanelli going to explain exactly who it was who insisted he apologise for being white and having a penis?

    How about holding him accountable for his words>

    Isn’t that a thing you like to whine about, fuckface?

  41. Woo_Monster, Sniffer of Starfarts says

    Greg Laden,

    After someone does what Mykeru has done, they are up for grabs.

    Up for grabs? Depends what you mean by that.

    Go back and look at the tweets Stephanie posed, and click though to the links, and then really ask yourself, do you want to defend Mykeru?

    Mykeru is a despicable person. But, yes, despicable people still deserve to be defended from certain types of actions (such as having their address posted).

    If you do, what kind of person does that make you?

    The type of person who doesn’t believe that being a douchebag harasser is automatic grounds for any and all types of retaliation.

    ***
    Greg, do you scold all those who are against, say, water boarding, for “defending terrorists”?

  42. Woo_Monster, Sniffer of Starfarts says

    2: Removing his anonymity is a valid step in de-fanging him. Tying his vile tweets to his ‘legitimate’ online identity is a fair level of unmasking someone, and he pretty clearly deserved it.

    3: Posting the address and the photo of his home (even if, y’know, the right address and home had been posted) was slime-tactics, however, and Laden deserves every bit of criticism he gets for that.

    4: The fact that apparently he got it wrong, and was posting the address of an ex-wife, and possibly her former address at that? Utterly contemptible.

    QFFT
    ***
    Anthony,

    What other reason do you have for posting his address online?

    Please answer the fucking question, Greg.

  43. emburii says

    D Pitman:

    And a supposed sex tape has what to do with this argument exactly? And you wonder why people call you misogynistic. Here’s a hint, if you’ll listen; maybe if you’d just focus on the actual argument and points at hand rather than attempting to bring in your twisted sense of slander and shame, you might find a lot less of the ‘m-word’ thrown in your direction. Until then, understand that the person making your side look bad is you.

    I definitely have points of disagreement with Stephanie Zvan, and I’m not going to take her interpretation as gospel. But I am fortunate in that you outlined your own flaws quite thoroughly, thank you. She may be wrong in her interpretations of things, and her support of Greg Laden. But at least she’s not vicious and INTENTIONALLY poisonous like you.

  44. Simon says

    A question for all the commenters that disagree with what Greg did: what would you do in his place?

  45. Anthony K says

    A question for all the commenters that disagree with what Greg did: what would you do in his place?

    First, Greg Laden can tell us his purpose in posting Mykeru’s address online. What was that action intended to convey to Mykeru?

    Then, we can talk about potential alternatives.

  46. Stacy says

    Go back and look at the tweets Stephanie posed, and click though to the links, and then really ask yourself, do you want to defend Mykeru? If you do, what kind of person does that make you

    It’s not about defending Mykeru. Mykeru is a douche.

    It was wrong to post (what you thought was) his home address.

    And it’s not about “sitting in judgement” on you, Greg. You doing a wrong thing doesn’t make you a bad person. None of us is perfect. In your place, I might have done the same thing. Sometimes I get so mad at these fuckers….Posting people’s addresses is still over the line. That is behavior we rightly call out when slimers do it. It’s no less wrong when somebody on our side does it.

  47. stakkalee says

    No one should have to put up with the kind of harassment Mykeru has subjected Laden to; it’s vile and detestable. However, “doxing” (posting a personal address as an implied threat) is wrong. If it’s wrong when Vacula does it to Surly Amy, it’s wrong when it’s done to Mykeru. It doesn’t make Laden a bad person, it means he made a bad decision. How he reacts when rightly called on it is the true test of character. As for Mykeru, I suspect he has no character to be tested. Best to leave him to stew in his own ignorance and hatred. I have no solution for dealing with the continued harassment on Twitter – withdrawing from a public space is merely ceding the ground to haters like Mykeru. Nevertheless, I have to believe there was another option.

  48. chrisho-stuart says

    Simon, to answer your question of what I (a *strong* critic of Greg) would do rather than what Greg chose to do. (And I confess to being stunned at the question!)

    I would do a lot of ignoring and disengaging.

    If I *did* want to say anything, it would be on a blog, not twitter. And it would not be phrased as if talking to Mykeru — a fools game. I’d call out the behavior in public phrased to a general audience, and if the behavior was seriously bad (as it seems to be in this case) then I might well expose the real name.

    I would never ever post an address; that was wrong in every possible way. It (quite rightly) only makes Greg manage to look worse, and (unfortunately) give ammunition to Mykeru. It’s absolutely the wrong thing to do in a highly charged internet-wide vendetta with various sides facing off and making a lot of aggressive and nasty noises. There’s no excuse for it, and Greg’s excuses are just contemptible.

    Greg is a serial offender of tactics that make me very glad to have him off this network. I think he is much more of a more of a problem than a help in the various causes on which we are otherwise both aligned.

    There are any number of good examples of how to do engage these kinds of things better than Greg manages. Stephanie Zvan stands as a good example of expressing anger and contempt in much better ways than what Greg did.

    It was right and appropriate to call him out.

  49. says

    A question for all the commenters that disagree with what Greg did: what would you do in his place?

    Well I annoyed Mykeru a little, especially talking about who he might be on twitter. So he made a direct clear threat “… don’t understand why Oolon is trying to stir up shit about threats. I’ve never threatened anyone, except him. Specifically I threatened to stick an ice-pick in his ear. And it still seems like a good idea.” … And then continued… Then added some legal threats… Then some threats about spreading rumours of me posting “child porn” on the Slymepit… Then he gave up and blocked me on Twitter and the pit…

    My response was to make it clear I had no intention of d0x’ing him as he at first seemed seriously annoyed about this. It quickly became clear he was taking the piss and looking on his blog it was even more clear that his “tough guy” act was his only trick and all an act. So I went back to taking the piss a little out of him and laughing at his threats…. I never threatened him back, at all, because that was clearly his aim. I also was being mildly trollish myself so getting the threats was unexpected but made for a good blog post about how badly the pitters handle a little bit of trolling.

    Can I blame Greg for acting as he did? Not really as without Mykerus blog on the wayback machine to see what a tool he is I might have taken him seriously as no one has ever been quite as direct and unambiguous in threatening me before.

  50. says

    Having slept on the matter twice, I’m still having a great deal of trouble getting worked up about Mykeru being told that if he’s going to continue to harass and threaten Greg (and me, not so incidentally, plus at least harassing lots of other people), he’ll be doing it from relatively even ground instead of from behind a pseudonym. People know where I work, where I live, where I volunteer, where to find what I’ve had to say about plenty of people, where to serve papers if I say something libelous. There are a lot of leverage points people can use against me if they wish, and they have.

    I’m conscious of that when I’m writing. Pretty much anyone who isn’t a sociopath is conscious of that sort of thing if they don’t feel their identity is well-hidden. It makes a difference in how most of us behave. It’s probably pointless with Mykeru, because he has a pretty long history of proud sociopathy, but I’m not sure the reminders are awful as a curb to behavior.

  51. carlie says

    he’ll be doing it from relatively even ground instead of from behind a pseudonym.

    There’s a really big difference between broadcasting someone’s name and broadcasting someone’s address, and adding a photo of that address makes it even higher levels of awful. That’s basically right out of an old movie script where the mafia sends you anonymous photos of yourself going about your daily business just so you know they can take you out whenever they feel like it. I agree with everything Anthony said, and I’d really like to know what message Greg thought he was sending by posting the address.

  52. Simon says

    @crisho-stuart:

    Stephanie Zvan stands as a good example of expressing anger and contempt in much better ways than what Greg did.

    I share your admiration for Stephanie. However I can’t help but notice that she too gets a ridiculously high amount of harassment from the same general direction.

  53. says

    Wow… this is awful.

    Look at the dates on the tweets. Mine is on the 12th, none of the others are on that day.

    I didn’t know it was my turn to babysit Mykeru and document his whole life.

    Truth: I know nothing about mykeru. The very first time I saw the name on twitter was Greg Laden saying “GIVE ME YOUR HOME ADDRESS, CHICKEN.” People know I’ve been threatened by Laden before so they sent me a link. Forgive me for not feeling the need to see if mykeru was ALSO bad.

    How I would have reacted if you asked ahead of time presenting this stuff that I ‘surely must have seen’:
    It’s not good. I don’t like the word ‘cunt’, and I don’t think it’s funny to constantly bring up that ‘kick in the cunt’ troll / harassment (not in a legal sense, but the common use). I’ve always said this, and I always will. It’s wrong. Greg is obviously more wrong here, and it’s not even close.

    How the fuck am I supposed to know how many people Greg Laden threatens and what their back stories are? He’s repeated his threats to me as recently as a month ago. He’s indefensible and there’s no way you can read my blog posts to suggest that I was defending Mykeru. I said he’s smarter than Greg Laden, but is that really saying much? Hard to say.

    There is no need to ever release a home address to the internet. Ever. You don’t have to like Justin Griffith but you do have to stop implying that he magically knew that Mykeru was saying any of these things.

    This was the extent of that conversation. It started because a member of my first RBB lineup (who had to drop out unfortunately due to his declining health, – it’s so sad to say this slow goodbye to him…) and friend Al Stefanelli liked a post I did.

    THIS IS WHAT I KNEW ABOUT MYKERU

    Then this mykeru character had a short conversation with me and Al, and I didn’t even see all of it until just now. I didn’t see the ‘pussy’ reference until just now, but that’s far from what you’re accusing me of ‘knowing’.

    All this aside… you’re quite two faced to blame ME for anything regarding FtB’s quite righteous decision to fire a person who has repeatedly threatened me with violence, says I ‘ride the short bus’ (classy), I’m a toddler in a parking lot…

    “Bully for you” as they say.

  54. says

    Outing somebody is NOT the same as posting an address.
    Posting a false address is especially bad because you’re not living in a place and time where nobody gives a fuck about an atheist next door. And the people living there now did not choose to be connected to that shitstain via the internet, and if it’s still his ex, she especially chose to be disconnected from that shitstain.

    And no, the fact that he is a shitstain doesn’t mean he’s “up for grabs”. Some things have a very high threshold.
    And actually, I’m sick and tired of the “they brought it unto themselves”. Only that I usually I get to hear it from the other side…

  55. chrisho-stuart says

    Simon; I agree that Stephanie, and FtB in general, and a range of other posters especially women, get completely over the top abuse from the general direction in which Mykeru tends to inhabit. Over this last year it has been a sharp wake up call to me and many others at the depth of sheer mean spirited venomous misogyny that exists.

    They generally handle it very well.

    In my opinion, Greg Laden stands as a contrast to this; handling the abuse badly by being abusive himself. That’s why I’m still amazed that you could have possibly asked the question of what else would someone do beside what Greg did. In all honesty I just don’t get what was going on in your head with that question. Just look around this network. It’s full of people who don’t behave like Greg. You often see the claim being made that FtB etc are bullies or whatever. It isn’t true. Greg really does behave like a bully IMO; and he’s been evicted for it — and a good thing too. There are much better writers here already taking up the issues Greg focuses on and doing it better.

    But now we are getting a new dust-up happening here which is more troubling to me.

    In my view, Stephanie has this one wrong. Justin’s failings are here are pretty trivial.

    (1) He used the word “argument” in a way which I think was fine; it isn’t a word used only of a “connected series of propositions in support of a hypothesis” (as in the Monty Python sketch). Arguments can also be made which are as nasty and ad hominem and fallacious as all get out. Getting up set with the word “argument” was silly; because Justin’s point was correct. It doesn’t matter *what* was going on; posting an address was wrong — indeed despicable. Even if the other side does things just as despicable or worse.

    (2) He posted a tweet in support of Mykeru speculating about Greg. Bad move there Justin; but not something worth getting this het up about, IMO. Why get upset because someone is being too friendly with your enemies? That’s the way we just cement the whole pathetic team thing.

    Basically, Justin is on the money. Calling out the despicable tactic of posting addresses is appropriate.

    The splash back against Justin has been over the top. But even though the argument between Justin and Stephanie and Jason and so on has been strongly worded note that it has been focused on content and has not descended into the kinds of thing that seem to have no other purpose than to cause hurt or pain or trouble.

    For all that I think Stephanie has this one wrong, she’s still streets ahead of Mykeru or Greg or the others that go further into content-free abuse as an attack for its own sake.

    I very much hope that they can work this out; because they all have separate and vital contributions to this network.

    Justin is the voice for secularism and atheism in the military. It’s a voice and a campaign which we really need to encourage and support and Justin’s excellent work there make his one of my must-see blogs on this network.

    Stephanie is one of several voices — and one of a couple of stands outs in this category — as a voice for women in secularism and atheism. Something which over this last year has really stood out to me as another campaign we need to encourage and support.

    (To which I would add Ed as a stand out on the political scene; and Chris as a stand out against “Christian Nationalism”, and Crommunist to look at race relations: to pick a couple more examples; and there are others.)

    FtB is a great network, and Justin is one of those that make it so.

  56. says

    Oh, Justin. You write a blog post in which you claim to know what Greg’s intentions and motivations were, yet you can’t be held responsible for considering that the slimepitter who hands you a bomb to lob at Greg has been threatening him and has been part of the pervasive harassment and threats he’s been receiving from exactly that source? What a wonderfully convenient life you build for yourself. Does it take work to stay that willfully blind, or is it just second nature now?

    How I would have reacted if you asked ahead of time presenting this stuff that I ‘surely must have seen’:

    Don’t put words I haven’t said or even implied in quotes.

    Seriously, that’s all you would have said? No “Threats are never acceptable”? No “This person is dangerous and needs to be pushed out of the movement before he hurts somebody”? Yeah, that’s about what I thought.

    you’re quite two faced to blame ME for anything regarding FtB’s quite righteous decision to fire a person who has repeatedly threatened me with violence

    FtB did not make any “decision to fire a person who has repeatedly threatened [you] with violence”. The fact that you can’t describe what happened as it actually happened should probably tell you something about the mismatch between the event and your perception–or the perception you want other people to have–of it.

    says I ‘ride the short bus’ (classy)

    Yeah, it’s really bad to quote Abbie at you when you’ve been defending her.

    I’m a toddler in a parking lot…

    You mean you’re not going to claim this was an attempt to invoke PTSD too? Greg told you multiple times you were in over your head with this crowd. Perhaps now that you’ve been thoroughly used by a serial harasser who threatens his targets, you ought to thank him for the words of advice. Of course, he was wrong about which weakness of yours they’d go for, but who knew you’d develop such a screaming rage-on for Greg that you’d suck up to the pitters like Al has.

  57. says

    chrisho-stuart, this is not about teams. This is about refusing to call harassment and threats “harassment” and “threats”. It is about lending these threats and harassment legitimacy by calling it “debate” and “disagreement” and “argument”. They are not, and don’t you add to that perception either. When you do, you are very much part of the problem. We work in a community that praises disagreement and debate. It is impossible to marginalize harassment when it is allowed to hide under those labels.

    Justin has a history of doing this, and he’s getting worse in his attempt to take down not just Greg, but any of Greg’s friends who haven’t abandoned him to the harassers. I’m not going to lay down and take that, either for me or for the other people who are being harassed, just because Justin does something good occasionally for “the movement”. That is not a sacrifice you get to ask of me, much less demand.

  58. Shin says

    To the people who say “well releasing his name is obviously ok, but an address is SO FAR OVER THE LINE OMG” – what the fuck brought you to this conclusion?

    If you are going to be against releasing people’s information online fine, be against it. This middle position as outlined by several people in this thread just makes no sense to me. Once you have someone’s real name it is a matter of 15 seconds to 5 minutes of googling to obtain an address (the extra time allotted for having to narrow down if you’re trying to find a common name).

    If your argument is that addresses are off limits because “someone” may track them down to do them harm because of you posting their address, then that argument should be applied equally to their name. This hypothetical individual that’s doing the harm is likely able to find http://www.google.com.

  59. Hazelwood says

    Shin – is that really true? I don’t ever try and track people down that way so I wouldn’t know. I know that it is possible, of course, with enough time and know-how, but is it really such a simple thing for anyone to do?

  60. says

    To the people who say “well releasing his name is obviously ok, but an address is SO FAR OVER THE LINE OMG” – what the fuck brought you to this conclusion?

    Releasing a name gives people who actually deal with that person some information they should have/might need, especially if that person has a history of harassment and threatening behaviour.
    Releasing an address means that now every Hinz and Kunz who might want to target an atheist (or completely unrelated people) can do so easily.
    A name itself doesn’t give you that much. My name is unique in this world. I just looked it up: You can’t get my address by putting it into google

  61. stakkalee says

    Giliell, Mykeru makes his real name and city publically available; he’s not trying to hide that information. His address is available to anyone willing to pony up the $30 for the online background check.

  62. Fleegman says

    As Anthony K asked:

    I ask, for the third fucking time, Again, what was your purpose in revealing Mykeru’s address?

    I realise I’m late to the conversation, but Greg, why won’t you just answer the fucking question? If you didn’t mean it as an implied threat, how did you mean it?

    You’ve danced around the question in your responses so far, but with each side-step you only serve to further implicate yourself as an arse-hole of the highest order.

  63. Fleegman says

    So, what, he’s taking The Fifth?

    No, he didn’t dance around the question. He ignored Anthony entirely.

    Take a look at 12:27 for starters. Unless you think he was talking to someone else? That, right there, is dancing around the question, specifically responding to Anthony.

    If he has a legitimate reason for revealing the address, let’s hear it. Since he clearly doesn’t have one, I’m not surprised he’s not answering the question. Throwing out garbage like “…he’s up for grabs” just serves to dig himself deeper.

    Why can’t he simply admit it was a stupid thing to do and move on?

  64. says

    Fleegman, you’re the one commenting a week after Greg talked to Mykeru on Twitter and removed both the tweets and (quite generously) a blog post documenting that Mykeru was encouraging people to leave nasty reviews of Greg’s book on Amazon. Does Greg need to speak to you and Anthony individually before the moving on is valid?

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