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Sep 21 2012

I Object

A couple of days ago, I noticed some friends having a nice little conversation on Twitter with someone who was quite familiar from the slimepit. They were chatting on the #scio13 hashtag, the tag for one of the most friendly, open, and well-run science-communication conferences out there.

I’d had enough “fun” at last year’s conference with this guy there. I mostly ignored his existence, which wasn’t always easy when he was talking to a friend in the same group I was in. Still, the conference wasn’t about the slimepit, so I didn’t raise any sort of fuss. I just ran my session and had fun where I found it, while keeping one wary eye out. That wary eye, as it turned out, wasn’t necessary. He never spoke to me.

Still, seeing his name repeatedly pop up in my Twitter stream, seeing it be tweeted by women I know are upset about the harassment that I’ve been dealing with for talking about harassment, knowing that it would likely keep coming up on the hashtag for a conference I consider “home”–it got to me. I tweeted:

So, how many #scio13'ers know that @ hung out in ERV's "monument" to misogynistic hatred of Rebecca Watson and others--me inlcuded?
@szvan
Stephanie Zvan

The reply was predictable.

@ whoa. If you have any problem with any statement I myself have made, take it up with me. genuinely. I tend to despise witch-hunts.
@Gurdur
Tim Skellett

There were also people who wanted to know more about what I meant. Jason referred those people to this archived page. That’ll do, though I believe there’s more in other threads.

This post is an answer to Gurdur’s request for specifics. It is not a response quoting particular comments, because I’m talking about behavior that isn’t limited to an objectionable word or phrase.

This is also a response for people who saw the tweet, wanted more, but weren’t going to delve in 5,000 comments to find it. To those people, I hope you at least click the link and read some comments. It you’re not familiar with the slimepit and you’re feeling reasonably non-fragile today, start somewhere in the middle of the page and just read for a couple hundred comments. It’s really the only way to get a good sense of what the people who commented there were gathered to do. It can’t be summed up in a single comment or even two or three. That thread was literally intended by Abbie to be her “monument”. It has to be understood as such.

Now, my objections to Gurdur:

  • I object to the fact that you found a thread dedicated to an obsessive hatred and tearing down of Rebecca Watson, PZ Myers, Ophelia Benson, and others including me a congenial place to hang out for a couple of months.
  • I object to your not saying word one to suggest that months of hate is anything other than a productive way to spend one’s time.
  • I object to you allowing your own hate for PZ to make you treat the behavior in that thread as normal.
  • I object to you talking about slurs, lies, and harassment as just bad PR for your common cause with the other slimepitters.
  • I object to your creating a list of female atheist speakers specifically to exclude outspokenly feminist atheists from that list.
  • I object to your assertion that Abbie Smith and Scented Nectar, who apparently must resort to slurs and commentary on their opponents looks, and Bluharmony, who lies even when the contradictory evidence is staring her in the face, are among the best representatives of female atheism.
  • I object to your treating these “equity feminists”, adherents to an ideology that is self-described as “non-empirical”, and holding them up as pillars of rational thought.
  • I object to your congratulating Franc Hoggle on the creation of Phawrongula as though it were a good thing to create yet another site solely dedicated to his obsessive hatred.
  • Most of all, in this particular circumstance, I object to you taking one of my “home” conventions, a place that is unabashedly feminist as part of its larger mission of inclusion, and pretending that you are sympathetic to its goals, even as you work to undermine feminism in another sphere.
  • And I certainly object to you trying to blow these objections off as a “witch-hunt” and “guilt by association”.

Yes, that’ll do.

90 comments

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  1. 1
    Pteryxx

    “Swallow shit, or ruin the entire day?” *allyhoof*

  2. 2
    Worldtraveller

    Is that the same Gurdur that runs (used to run?) the heathen hangout? If so, he is one of the most full of himself pretentious assholes I’ve ever had the displeasure of interacting with on these wide interwebs.

  3. 3
    trinioler

    Here here Stephanie!

    Also, keep up the good work on the social security series. Very very very good stuff.

  4. 4
    Stephanie Zvan

    Gurdur’s response was via Twitter.

    I’m just a hater who lied about…something about him that he won’t specify, so he’s going to ignore me.

  5. 5
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    He is one of the most unpleasant, dishonest, and nasty people I’ve ever run into in the atheist blogosphere. That he coats it with a veneer of smug pseudo civility and an affected air of being “cultured” makes him more offensive. People need to know this and they need to agree he’s not welcome in your circle (or any civilized circle).

  6. 6
    Timid Atheist

    I love how his reply via twitter is that you’re not treating him like a person. I’m sensing his definition of person is cis, white male and that you aren’t being deferential or polite enough for him. And so he he’s going to ignore you with eight tweets about how he’s going to ignore you.

  7. 7
    simonsays

    Ah yes, I remember one of the blog posts well: http://heathen-hub.com/blog.php?bt=6382

    The one above is interesting because while he expresses deep concern about saving money and not turning it into “champagne atheism”…one of the people he recommends we fly in is from New Zealand. Yes, that would have absolutely kept our costs in check according to Gurdur.

  8. 8
    Raging Bee

    The other offensive thing about this guy is how he says things in public, but anyone who objects to what he said has to talk to him inm private about it. Does he really think he’s fooling anyone with that fake civility?

  9. 9
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Unfortunately, Raging Bee, people *are* frequently fooled by that tactic. That’s why people like Skellett use it.

  10. 10
    oolon

    Hmm I probably shouldn’t comment as I got shat on in Pharyngula repudiation article for saying slimepitters are maybe not *all* misogynists and they should be insulted and ridiculed as individuals… So I suppose this post fits that just fine – Gurdur seems to be a collosal numpty. Anyone who thinks Phawrongula is something to congratulate anyone on is not very rational. Never come across Gurdur tho, is he no longer an active slimepitter?

    In other news amusingly the slimepitters are debating whether steersman (Banned from Pharyngula for defending the use of the word c*nt as ‘just’ meaning obnoxious) should be shunned as too much of an FtB-type… I give up trying to understand, more depressingly I give up trying to ridicule them as they do a much better job than me!

  11. 11
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Hmm I probably shouldn’t comment as I got shat on in Pharyngula repudiation article for saying slimepitters are maybe not *all* misogynists and they should be insulted and ridiculed as individuals…

    You got shat on because you were spewing bullshit. Stop that. Don’t start that up here.

  12. 12
    PZ Myers

    Oh, jebus. Gurdur wants to meddle in Scio13? That guy has no qualifications or skills in anything, but he loves to pretend to be an expert in online communities…yet every one he touches turns to flaming shit.

    He always does witchhunts. It’s one of the ways he demolishes communities, is by moving in and telling them about the heinous plans he read in the minds of others who are not as wise as he.

    He’s one of the reasons I abandoned all online forums years ago. Every time I found one that seemed pleasant and interesting, he’d show up shortly afterwards and start playing the role of Leland Gaunt from Needful Things, giving his ever so helpful and hypocritical advice, and before you knew it, the whole place was a simmering stew of mistrust. He hasn’t shown up at Pharyngula, but if he did, he’d maybe make one comment before I’d throw him out on his poisonous ass.

  13. 13
    N_J

    Haha. Josh, you’re a riot when you go into your “don’t. Just stop it. Don’t do that” routine. You’re an embarrassment to gays, atheism, and free speech. Asshat.

  14. 14
    beccaweinberg

    Ug. Nothing in particular he said that I saw in that thread is inherently appalling, just a lot of generalized smarminess.
    I can’t help but roll my eyes at people more or less complaining with no apparent sense of irony “my sense of humor is making me a target for TehOppressions!!!”

  15. 15
    PZ Myers

    I think “Smarmy” is his middle name.

  16. 16
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Pobrecito N_J. :((

  17. 17
    oolon

    @Josh, sorry shat on for ‘trying’ to get that point across and failing… Nothing else I said here bullshit?

    One thing I particularly liked from Mike Kingsford Gray on there is this bit ->

    PZ, Beccy, Jen! Send us your best champion, I beg of thee.
    The two so far have been abject failures.

    We could do with the policing and I, for one, would welcome it.

    I was apparently one ‘champion’ and steersman the other… No wonder they have such a poor opinion of FtBs ;-)

    Given all the debates we have been seeing recently, AronRa vs Ray, and suggested ones such as PZ vs Hovind I’d like to see Slymepit vs FtBs. Will never happen but when the ‘debate’ occurs in sporadic articles like this on the FtB’s ‘side’ and memes/campaigns and blog posts on the other ‘side’ it is hard to know what the ideological issues are. I’m sure I’ll get told it’s just treating women as human beings on this side – but what are their ideologies and could they actually back up the arguments in a debate like the one AronRa had on LeagueOfReason? Might keep that side occupied for a while if nothing else ;)

  18. 18
    Pteryxx

    oolon, already done, year and change ago, in the original 3D5K Elevatorgate threads on Pharyngula and Skepchick and other blogs. Now they’re just seeking a platform to legitimize their bullshit by elevating it to the status of “opposing viewpoint”.

  19. 19
    oolon

    @Pteryxx, threads are not the place for a reasoned debate (Just look at Pharyngula ;-)). Although I like to take the piss out of them as a small obsessed group of nutters their influence to a degree has grown. Not the group itself but it is worrying to see Dawkins retweet comments supporting the anti-FtBs brigade and see people like Russell Blackford, Paula Kirby and others join in with these ‘victim feminism’ and ‘special snowflake’ memes…

  20. 20
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Then go forth and solve it, oolon. Clearly you’ve some insight into stopping the nonsense that has evaded everyone else. Could you maybe do it without shitting on people and making snotty remarks implying how irrational “Pharyngula” people are? Really. Folks don’t deserve it. We have enough shit to deal with from people who really hate us. Please don’t help them.

  21. 21
    hyperdeath

    Gurdur’s personality can be best described as “poisoned honey”. I first encountered him in The Guardian’s comment section, where he enthusiastically sucks up to people like Andrew Brown, and viciously attacks any atheist who doesn’t meet his exacting specifications. He was also a prime supporter of Wally Smith (of You’re Not Helping and Tom Johnson fame).

  22. 22
    Pteryxx

    threads are not the place for a reasoned debate

    Begging the question.

    Dawkins and Blackford were repeating victim-feminism memes before the pit even existed; and they were called on it and refused to engage. Nice try. /not

  23. 23
    oolon

    @Josh, Asshat etc, Careful N_J will accuse you of sexism next by assuming N_J is a ‘he’, could be a pobrecita…

  24. 24
    oolon

    @Pterryx, were they? Oh well, I will hold onto Paula then who PZ said he wanted to grow up to be like in one article :-)

  25. 25
    Stephanie Zvan

    oolon, if your intentions are to stir stuff up, today is not the day for it. Don’t try my patience.

  26. 26
    Stephanie Zvan

    PZ, I don’t know what exactly Gurdur’s connection is to ScienceOnline right now. I know Bora has thanked him publicly for a couple of things. I don’t believe he’s moderating any sessions at the 2013 conference, which is one of the biggest ways to have an influence.

    I haven’t been as involved this year as much as I would like to be. Some of it is just being busier in this community. Some of it is probably a bit of unacknowleged squick from dealing with him being there last year. So I can’t say.

  27. 27
    oolon

    @Stephanie, sorry just being gossipy about the slimepitters… So I suppose a little bit of stirring…

  28. 28
    Anne C. Hanna

    Ugh. I first encountered Gurdur when I mentioned gnu atheism in the forum of a local meetup group I frequent. Other people didn’t know what it was and one of them googled the phrase and came up with this lovely post of Gurdur’s, which I then had to debunk for everyone in detail. Blech.

  29. 29
    carlie

    You’re an embarrassment to gays, atheism, and free speech.

    You forgot AND THE AMERICAN FLAG.

  30. 30
    julian
    You’re an embarrassment to gays, atheism, and free speech.

    You forgot AND THE AMERICAN FLAG.

    And you forgot the children!

    Won’t somebody please think of the children!

  31. 31
    Greg Laden

    I had a number of conversations with him at Science Online 2012, because a woman I was hanging out with (who shall remain nameless because she really does not want to get involved in this discussion) smoked, Gurder smoked, so we ended up standing in the North Carolina drizzle inhaling tobacco smoke (me passively) a number of times. I doubt he remembers because he was busy drooling over my friend most of the time.

    I also recall that he needed to video each of the talks he was at using a flip and a half baked tripod, and was in the way a bit.

    Having said that, in person, he’s not at all the same as inTernet. In person he’s unremarkable content-wise, highly affected, but not much more affected than many at a conference like that. I.e., he is glued to a funny looking hat and appears to think of himself as dapper.

    Yes, he does use this “Talking in private” thing, that’s funny. We’ve had a few oddball conversations like that. He’s convinced that he is clever. Really, he’s just a wise-ass.

    I believe he was the first person to publicly announce, and threaten me with this announcement (sort of), that I had “sent a letter to Abbie Smith’s advisor” (which I had not done … it was to her department’s chair). For some reason he thought that telling everyone I had sent a letter to a grad student’s department alerting them to her unethical and unprofessional behavior and asking them to lean on her for her own good would somehow bother me. As it happens, on learning that a letter from me to a department chair had hit the internet literally within hours, via a dweeb like Gurder, I contacted that University’s provost to let them know that they had a professionalism problem that went beyond one out of control grad student. They were very interested, the University council was CC’ed, and within a few more hours (or a day or two, can’t remember) everybody close to Abbie shut up about that letter. The point here is, whatever he’s up to, he’s close enough into the core of the slime pit to be on the first tier of the phone tree. I suspect either he’s a close advisor to Smith, or she to him.

    I too was disturbed to see Gurder hob nobbing with some of the Science Online people, and it is annoying that Bora does not seem to (yet) realize that promoting Gurder is unwise because he will get his hand bitten later. In the end, though, it is probably not that important.

    Having said that, there may be something even more interesting here. Of all the people in the Atheist/Secular/Skeptical on line community, how many are also part of the professional communication community, what with all its gate keepers and country club rules, as represented in part at Science Online? Lots. A hundred, maybe. Probably more. Of all the people in the part of that community that includes the misogynists, slime pitters, haters, libertarian right wingers, and nutbags, how many overlap? Very close to zero. Because Gurder … he’s as closet to Zero as you can get, and that’s all there is.

    So, good.

  32. 32
    miraxpath

    This ass has been after Ophelia Benson for years and hayes New Atheists as well as FTB. He has form.

  33. 33
    miraxpath

    hates.

  34. 34
    fwtbc

    Pteryxx @ #1:

    That blog post is indeed pretty fantastic.

    Still a powerful read, especially after all the sexist shit in our communities.

  35. 35
    beccaweinberg

    Geeze, Greg. You say “he is glued to a funny looking hat and appears to think of himself as dapper” like it’s a bad thing!

    If they let me into to scienceonline this year, I shall propose to lead a dapper habberdashiery icebreaker.

  36. 36
    Greg Laden

    Becca, its not a bad thing at all. I have my own funny hat. But if that’s all you’ve got, and that’s all he’s got, then its a problem.

    (Of course, my hat has much more character, having been chewed on by wild carnivores who took it off my head while I was wearing it, and so on.)

  37. 37
    Setár, Elvenkitty

    Josh:

    The other offensive thing about this guy is how he says things in public, but anyone who objects to what he said has to talk to him in private about it. Does he really think he’s fooling anyone with that fake civility?

    I have never understood how this request comes off as “civil” in the first place. If I’m not friends with the person then the request comes off invariably as “let me take you aside and bully you into shutting up where no one else can watch”, and I will loudly reject it as such.

  38. 38
    hyperdeath

    I notice that Gurdur describes himself as “try[ing] very much to be simply live-and-let-live”. Why do people who brag about a particular virtue, always seem embody its extreme opposite?

  39. 39
    SallyStrange

    threads are not the place for a reasoned debate (Just look at Pharyngula [passive-aggressive smiley]

    Oolon, I hate to break it to you (no I don’t), but the fact that YOU have not encountered reasoned debate is not evidence that reasoned debate does not occur on Pharyngula. The more likely explanation is that you are incapable of engaging in reasoned debate. Your tendency towards shit-stirring rather than honest arguments, which you have showcased in this very thread, is a good piece of supporting evidence for the idea that fault lies with Oolon rather than the many other people using Pharyngula to communicate.

  40. 40
    BaileyGate

    >I object to your not saying word one to suggest that month’s of hate is anything other than a productive way to spend one’s time.

    >I object to you talking about slurs, lies, and harassment as just bad PR for your common cause with the other slimepitters.

    These cannot both be true. Either he hasn’t said anything, or he has said its bad PR.

  41. 41
    SallyStrange

    Can’t something be both productive and bad PR? Depends on what’s being produced, I suppose.

  42. 42
    Stephanie Zvan

    BaileyGate, you may not have realized it, because you probably weren’t trying to read for comprehension, but “months of hate” and “slurs, lies, and harassment” are not the same thing. In fact, one can hate obsessively for a very long time indeed without doing any of those things.

  43. 43
    Alcyonian

    What a flying crock of shit. Gurdur is nothing like he is being portrayed here.

    Some people need to make drama. Fine, go bark at passing cars.

    Jo – from FRDB

  44. 44
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    What a flying crock of shit. Gurdur is nothing like he is being portrayed here

    Of course, you’re totally right.
    I’m really sorry that we made the terrible mistake of trusting our own senses and experiences to form an opinion about him instead of going to you whom we have never heard of and asking for your superior opinion

  45. 45
    Alcyonian

    I’ve known Gurdur for a long time and I know that:

    1. He would address the issue face to face with the person
    2. That he actually asked that in the tweet at the top of this thread.
    3. He’s not here answering anything (that should clue you in)
    4. That this is one disgusting piss fest aimed at one person.

    I don’t give a fuck if you don’t know who I am – I’m glad that I know none of you. If this is what the freethought society has lowed itself to (a slime pit) you are all welcomed to each other.

    Probably why Gurdur hasn’t been on this page.

    Sad fucking shitbags.

  46. 46
    Forbidden Snowflake

    Alcyonian, if you would put reading above hurt feelings, you would realize that demands to only discuss criticisms of his public behavior privately are in fact one of the things people accuse Gurdur of, and not a defense of him.

  47. 47
    Simon Primer

    So this is why they didn’t let women vote…

  48. 48
    Stephanie Zvan

    That’s it, Simon? That’s the best you’ve got?

  49. 49
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    Of course it is, Stephanie. “hur hur bitchz r dum” is all they’ve got. And yes, he thinks that’s clever. because Simon, like the excessively emotional and testerical Alcyonian can’t refute you.

    They know this, so they insult, whine, throw temper tantrums and lie.

    They’re cowards.

  50. 50
    Stephanie Zvan

    Illuminata, in Alcyonian’s case, I suspect it’s more that she is “someone” wherever she’s interacted with Gurdur. He can be kind of a suck-up to people in power while being condescendingly nasty to everyone else. That’s what makes him so poisonous to fora and the like. Of course, that’s no excuse for her not going and looking at the slimepit to figure out what he’s been participating in.

    Simon, on the other hand, apparently thinks his YouTube comments cut it in the real world.

  51. 51
    proudmra

    So, Stephanie… you couldn’t point to anything objectionable Gurdur actually SAID on that thread. You just chose to condemn him for the crime of posting on it at all.

    Does that about sum it up? Geez, no wonder the atheist movement is leaving the tantrum-throwing plussers behind….

  52. 52
    Stephanie Zvan

    Does that about sum it up?

    No.

  53. 53
    proudmra

    And yet, the content of your tweet was entirely about condemning Gurdur for “hanging out” in the thread, even though you couldn’t point to anything objectionable he said there. If you had complaints about other things Gurdur had said and done elsewhere, you wouldn’t have tweeted _specifically_ about his presence on the ERV thread.

    So what was the purpose, other than guilt by association?

  54. 54
    Stephanie Zvan

    Perhaps if you read more than just the tweet, you’d have a clue. Or did 140 characters fill up your brain?

  55. 55
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    Perhaps if you read more than just the tweet, you’d have a clue.

    BWAHAHAHAHAAa. Can’t expect any better from the lazy and stupid bigot posse.

    Geez, no wonder the atheist movement is leaving the tantrum-throwing bigotry-supporting plussers behind…

  56. 56
    proudmra

    Yes, I read your other complaints about him. But I note that your tweet didn’t address any of those issues–it was just a guilt-by-association slur on him having the temerity to post completely inoffensive content on a thread that bothered you.

    Not a very rational criticism, I must say. But then, why would it be?

  57. 57
    Stephanie Zvan

    I read your other complaints about him. But I note that your tweet didn’t address any of those issues–it was just a guilt-by-association slur on him having the temerity to post completely inoffensive content on a thread that bothered you.

    Well, no. You don’t get to have it both ways. Either the complaints you read are complaints about his behavior in that thread, or I was merely slurring him for “completely inoffensive content”. You do see that these are incompatible, yes? You understand this?

    Not a very rational criticism, I must say.

    I understand that you’re apparently unable to help yourself. However, compulsion doesn’t make one right. Usually the opposite, in fact.

  58. 58
    veronique

    I am not “someone” either but I feel it is important I share my 2 cents or 2 Euro centimes, being French. I profoundly deplore the portraying of Gurdur as a misogynist villain by attributing to his person ill intentions he certainly does not have. I had the opportunity to meet him in person as a guest in our home earlier this year. My husband and I are rather simple folks yet committed to supporting Freethinkers focused on the promotion of Secular Humanism as the ultimate contribution to the betterment of mankind. From all the multiple exchanges of ideas we shared with Gurdur, it was very clear to us both that he is endowed with a mind and mentality which reject prejudice in all of its forms. Whether it be prejudice targeting ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation.

    I am myself endowed with a mentality which rejects prejudice in all of its forms. Having been exposed in my childhood to cultural mentalities which treated women as sub humans as well as a climate plagued by extensive manifestations of racism.( I was raised in ex French colonies in Sub Sahara and Northern Africa) It would be out of my character for me to nurture a friendship with individuals affected by sexist or racist views. Basically, I do not invest my trust and affection in just anybody.

    The above to attempt to diffuse any jumping to the wrong conclusions on Gurdur’s account. When pre existing hurt feelings direct our interpretation of another person’s speech, behavior, interactions, we are all susceptible to give in to mistaken perceptions of that person’s character and intentions.

  59. 59
    Alcyonian

    Stephanie Zvan said: Illuminata, in Alcyonian’s case, I suspect it’s more that she is “someone” wherever she’s interacted with Gurdur.

    Response: Who I am is not important. Especially to any of your ilk. Being “known” or “someone” to you and your kind has as much enthusiasm to me as sticking my finger in a light socket.

    Stephanie Zvan said: He can be kind of a suck-up to people in power while being condescendingly nasty to everyone else.

    Response: Pot-Kettle. You mean kinda what you have done with this thread/post/blogcrap? bwahahaha

    Stephanie Zvan said: That’s what makes him so poisonous to fora and the like. Of course, that’s no excuse for her not going and looking at the slimepit to figure out what he’s been participating in.

    Response: His greatest error was to hit your radar and become a screen for you to garnish attention to yourself.

    I looked at the archive, because I like to give anyone the benefit of the doubt (you know? actually see if there is any corresponding evidence to support X claim? That kinda silly thing that people logically should/would do) and saw nothing that even cast an iota of substance to Gurdur being accused of being a misogynist.

    I can see that there are others in that thread (archive) that say some unsavory things, but the only reason I can fathom why you would attack Gurdur is because:

    1. He’s well known.
    2. It gave you a soap box to bleat upon.

    If you are that adamant that Gurdur is a misogynist, then provide that evidence (which is glaringly missing from this train wreck of a a thread). That shouldn’t be so hard if you believe it is actually so.

  60. 60
    Alcyonian

    Forbidden Snowflake said: Alcyonian, if you would put reading above hurt feelings, you would realize that demands to only discuss criticisms of his public behavior privately are in fact one of the things people accuse Gurdur of, and not a defense of him.

    Response: So let me get this straight, coming out of nowhere to make an accusation at someone who then asks for the person to “take it up with him, genuinely” is suddenly through some warped twist of the English Language to be translated as “privately”?

    I’m sure I missed the Mother Ship flying over head around about the time I missed the purple flying pig lamenting sweet nothings in French.

    Gurdur’s twitter history is there for all to see. He has had no problem with confrontations and direct questioning. Nor does he care that his 1700 strong twitter followers read it.

    So do me a favor and actually SHOW EVIDENCE.

  61. 61
    Alcyonian

    Illuminata said: Of course it is, Stephanie. “hur hur bitchz r dum” is all they’ve got. And yes, he thinks that’s clever.

    Response: Doh.

    Illuminata said:because Simon, like the excessively emotional and testerical Alcyonian can’t refute you.

    Response: Oh I love this. Appeal to Emotionalism. How about this, I think the majority of the people on this thread who had nothing better to do than go “hah hah.. funny hat.. hah hah.. eyed someone up” like a fucking Monkey Chorus, a vile fucking nutsacks, who created a witch hunt against one man who can’t even be arsed to even respond to you.

    Because it is not his style.

    But I have no problem calling shit bags for what they are.. shit bags.

    *you can take that emotionalism and slam it up your cunt*

    Illuminata said:They know this, so they insult, whine, throw temper tantrums and lie.

    Response: Oh hello Ms. Kettle. It is fine for a bunch of prats to dedicate a blogcrap to insulting, whining and having temper tantrums about Gurdur – and to have the Head Shitbitch of this Thread lie through her cum infested gums to do so – but because I called you out on it, you suddenly hit Projection Mode?

    Illuminata said:They’re cowards.

    Response: You would know. You need the conga chorus line, I have no problem bitch slapping you all by myself.

  62. 62
    Stephanie Zvan

    to have the Head Shitbitch of this Thread lie through her cum infested gums to do so

    Yes, I think Gurdur couldn’t have asked for a more eloquent defense of his utter lack of sexism. You’re done here.

  63. 63
    Stephanie Zvan

    veronique, did you click through and read those couple hundred comments from the slimepit?

  64. 64
    Alcyonian

    Stephanie Zvan said: Yes, I think Gurdur couldn’t have asked for a more eloquent defense of his utter lack of sexism. You’re done here.

    Response: So it is ok to insult Gurdur, but hellbound forbid if someone should turn the tables on you. Except I am actually asking for evidence.

    But guess what, I have 19,736 registered members which makes your twitter followers under 10% of what I have (I’m one of the unimportant persons by the way) and I have been running a Freethought Board for 4 years (I also own it).

    This is the kind of shit we warn others about.

  65. 65
    Stephanie Zvan

    So it is ok to insult Gurdur, but hellbound forbid if someone should turn the tables on you.

    Actually, everything I’ve said was about his behavior. If it’s insulting for him to have participated in the slimepit, that’s something he did, not me.

    Also, the fact that you seem to think “Hey, you give blowjobs” is an insult is just…weird.

    Except I am actually asking for evidence.

    I gave it to you. That’s why the thread about which I’m complaining is linked here. Evidence.

    But guess what, I have 19,736 registered members which makes your twitter followers under 10% of what I have

    So? You know how many members the Catholic Church has? Doesn’t make them right either.

  66. 66
    veronique

    Stephanie, I contend that I have a much greater insight into Gurdur’s mind, intentions, likes and dislikes, sense of mission, goals than any of you has. I can easily dissect just about anything anyone will state in any given communication and find something offensive with it. However, when having knowledge of a person’s actual character, the need to find wrong dissipates. What they will communicate is never isolated from what we know of their actual character. Which, again, Stephanie, short of meeting him and building a rapport with Gurdur, I am not sure how you or anyone would be able to assess his actual character and then be able to interpret his communications within the context of his actual character.

    Jumping on his case on Twitter certainly could not give anyone a sense of attempting to build a rapport.

    FYI I am well aware of any thought Gurdur has ever had regarding the schism which happened within the mainstream Atheist movement. He has now become a target of opportunities for NOT “taking sides”. The reality being that he is not taking sides but has accurately explored the implications of disproportionate reactions on both sides of the “elevatorgate” saga. And yes, I am aware of the content of the slimepit… err…sinkhole.

    When I met Tim, I thought of him as a mix between Voltaire and Cyrano De Bergerac. Same wit, same ability to use irony, same play with words, same perspicacious and incisive mind, basically a personality bound to piss off quite a few people. Add to that recipe the traits of a humanitarian.

    Actually, Stephanie, you would gain and Gurdur would too if you had approached him privately rather than what turns out now to be a bashing session with a riling up call (not on your part though) for this :

    “People need to know this and they need to agree he’s not welcome in your circle (or any civilized circle)”.

    Well, Tim will always be welcome in our home and on the discussion board whose community I serve : FRDB. And if it comes down to FRDB being labeled as not a “civilized circle” for being associated with Heathen Hub which Gurdur owns, I have no doubt that our members and the board Owners will not give a rat’s behind about what X or Y thinks.

    In the meantime, several members on Heathen Hub have reaffirmed their affection and appreciation for Tim. They have because they have been the beneficiaries of his attending their needs as many of them belong to the category of Atheists in the US who as they came out in RL as ” I am an Atheist” have been greeted by rejection from their families, work peers etc… you know as well as I do that Atheists are one of the most hated groups in the US. Basically, outside of his personality on the Internet, he counsels and supports struggling Atheist women and men across the US. The humanitarian traits.

    I hope you can understand that it is very difficult for me to empathize with the bashing of a person I know to be a decent and productive human being. Especially coming from folks who have seen how damaging and hurtful it was for Rebecca to be bashed for communicating an opinion which in no way meant to be taken the way it was.

  67. 67
    Stephanie Zvan

    veronique, I’ll take that as “No, I didn’t bother to read it”.

  68. 68
    Stephanie Zvan

    Also, veronique, you’re commenting from Florida and using an email address that has previously been used by “Rahab”. So, there’s that, along with your “mix between Voltaire and Cyrano De Bergerac” description of someone previously described by people who have met him as “slightly creepy” and “ogling”

  69. 69
    Shari

    Veronique sounds not-quite-real. Alcyonian is to sad not to be real. You are discussing someone’s behavior that is at odds with the humanitarian goals of atheism. I am very uninterested in wading through your evidence, and I know you well enough – and am learning enough background in these factions – to take your word for it. Has Gurdur attempted to honestly… I don’t know…dialogue with any proponents of Atheisism-plus? Or did someone already clarify that and I just missed it? Misogyny just seems a very patriarchal position for a group of skeptics to accept, stand by, stand for, or encourage. Let alone refse to oust, wholesale!!

    (ps, Josh, thanks for the discount!!!)

  70. 70
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    When I met Tim, I thought of him as a mix between Voltaire and Cyrano De Bergerac. Same wit, same ability to use irony, same play with words, same perspicacious and incisive mind, basically a personality bound to piss off quite a few people. Add to that recipe the traits of a humanitarian.

    If you were my PR rep I’d fire you for that kind of purple prose. It’s embarrassing.

  71. 71
    skeptifem

    wow. I looked through the monument thread, and I did a control+f for “cunt” in chrome and my scroll bar lit up with hundreds of marks. jeeeez.

  72. 72
    carlie

    I am myself endowed with a mentality which rejects prejudice in all of its forms.

    That may be the most pretentious statement I have ever read.

    And, I’d bet good money that it is also incorrect.

  73. 73
    carlie

    But guess what, I have 19,736 registered members which makes your twitter followers under 10% of what I have (I’m one of the unimportant persons by the way) and I have been running a Freethought Board for 4 years (I also own it).

    I have more friends than YOU, so THERE. PLUS I am on the INTERNET, which makes me IMPORTANT and you must therefore LISTEN TO ME. NO, LISTEN TO ME.

  74. 74
    Pierce R. Butler

    … a mix between Voltaire and Cyrano De Bergerac.

    So you must have a choice of selection of bonnes mots and aperçus from Gurdur’s ouevre with which to overawe us butors: bring ‘em on!

  75. 75
    veronique

    I live in the Tampa Bay, Florida. I used to post as Rahab on Theology Web. I am Sabine Grant on FRDB. How is any of that of any relevance to the reality that I have presented? Are you that determined to think that you can only be right, Stephanie, to the point that you will dismiss my own experience with Gurdur? You seem to be trying to find something wrong about me so you can rationalize invalidating my thoughts on Tim. Interesting.

    I read the “sinkhole” drama where an awful a lot of folks are indeed sinking into muddy waters. However, I have yet to interpret Gurdur’s participation as any evidence of his “hate” or/and misogyny. Again, you have jumped to the wrong conclusions.

    I realize I am hitting a brick wall here. I have given you the advice to approach Tim privately. Your style is to launch a public dirty laundry washing and at this point demanding it be so. In that, we also differ greatly.

    As far as I am concerned, the outcome of our exchanges is this : if any thought on my part to encourage members of our FRDB community and the Atheist/Freethinker/ Skeptic groups I am affiliated with to support your movement, that thought is gone. However, do not expect me to drag your person in any public mud. Simply not my style.

    As far as other replies are concerned, I will not take those snarky baits.

    Over and out.

  76. 76
    Eliza

    I don’t know Gurdur so can’t speak to the main topic, but I can definitely vouch that Veronique and Jo/Alcyonian are real. Each is from a non-Western culture, and Veronique from a French family in that culture; each is expressing herself in her cultural & linguistic norm (though I suspect Jo’s language above is saltier than typical even among her homies; she was angry).

    I know Veronique indeed to be among the most welcoming, accepting, justice oriented people I’ve ever met. I only wish I could have extended my stay with her earlier this year, indeed in Florida where she now lives (after having lived on at least 2 other continents).

    It’s really unfortunate how quickly, lately, people seem to become suspicious of others they’ve never met, and rush to judgment. And, apparently, to expect that everybody should communicate in exactly the same style. And anything doesn’t meet “spec” in the eyes of the beholder, then the other person must be fake or pretentious or a troll or must not be participating in “good faith”.

  77. 77
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Because I’m bored and annoyed, some Gurdur for you:

    All from the archived thread:
    Post 787

    I would immediately organize a male choir to wolfwhistle for you both and not to vjjaywalk, but I’m too worried the Saints Of Perpetual Martyrdom would only cite it as further evidence of the Grand Misogynistic Conspiracy.

    Every day this goes on I can feel my sense of humour being further and further suppressed.

    So PZ Myers is narcissistically causing yet another shitstorm. Mabus sends him spam, so Mabus should be locked up in a psych ward, according to Myers. More than that, Myers then attacks ZenBuffy for allegedly excusing Mabus.

    The Benson tribe seem to be overdoing the worship of their other tribal deity; in comments under Ophelia’s latest post, “Innnnnnnnternational humanist” (a little worshipful, hagiographical paen of Ophelia’s), Ophelia’s tribe are thinking, “So which group will be the most pissed off by this, I wonder. The True Believers (TM) who hate him, or the accommodationists who hate him or the MRAs who hate him?”

    as soon as I get the coward Salty Current’s real name, I’ll go to town on it.

    However, you can understand that in a situation where SallyStrange and Salty Current are running around like two poisonous old women gossips from the parish council who just love doing the whole anonymus-denuncient thing, daming Bluharmony to the ranks of the Unsaved Who Are Going To Hell because Bluharmony refuses to do as they tell her to do (which is the sole substance of SallyStrange’s complaint), doing the whole hyper-self-righteous ultra-Calvinist thang in damning and shunning alleged sinners, then I get frustrated. What a pair of poison-tongues they are, to be sure.

    As for Ophelia Benson and her perpetual martyrdom, she always did hate other women more than men. No wonder she blames ERV for everything and every idiot; just mildly surprised she couldn’t find some way to blame Madeleine Bunting.

    A small word of advice to all visiting Pharyngula minions

    It IS kinda bloody sad when the assembled hordes of Pharyngulite minions try very hard to emulate /b/tards – and can’t even manage that much in any capable way. It’s also very irritating; I wish to hell they could show a tiny, tiny bit more artistry and competency. Oh, wait, Pharyngula. My mistake, my over-expectations. Maybe y’all are only good at affecting internet polls. Christ. No fucking wonder the GOP rolls across the States like a flu epidemic.

    BTW, the last two were after people went there and objected about the “kick her in the cunt” threat. Not a word of him against that, but many against people who objected to it.

    Yes, there is Hoggle’s wiki, and so on, but unless one can give weight to a social voice, the danger is exactly that people will simply individually move on, and the atheist & skeptic movements as wholes suffer greatly, having been effectively monopolised by PZ suchlike.

    Urgh, just realized that he claims to live in Germany.
    Yuck, so far my great comfort was there being an ocean or at least channel between me and them.

  78. 78
    amc

    Giliell – thanks for being brave enough to read that pile of shit that is the slimepit.

    Good job, Alcyonian. I bet that Gurdur is thoroughly chuffed to have rational people like you saying how nice he is. [Remainder of comment deleted. Nope, just not doing that here. --SZ]

  79. 79
    Woo_Monster, Sniffer of Starfarts

    Any comment from those of you who want to defend gurdur? Giliell kindly provided many savory nuggets of gurdur “wisdom” for you. Why don’t you start by defending,

    as soon as I get the coward Salty Current’s real name, I’ll go to town on it.

    Sounds like a real classy guy to me.

  80. 80
    Pierce R. Butler

    Giliell, Approved Straight Chorus @ # 77 – Magnifique!

    Though perhaps Mme. Veronique could best compare her beau sabre to a different savant than those she named. Gurdur’s pensées have, in their final effect, more in common with an early roman by the renowned philosophe Sartre, one with a title beginning with “N”.

  81. 81
    Pierce R. Butler

    Well, my smart-ass French came out okay in # 80; my smart-ass html, pas bonne.

  82. 82
    don2

    Post#77 doesn’t completely answer it for me.

  83. 83
    Xanthë, Amy of my threads

    Post#77 doesn’t completely answer it for me.

    Well, that’s because they’re representative of Gurdur hanging around on the Monument threads, cheering on the festival hate and encouraging the others. You’d have to read the other thousands upon thousands of posts to get an inkling of what he was gleefully commenting in response to.

    Like Eliza (#76) I have no personal knowledge of Gurdur, or many of the other principals in the last year’s on-going campaign. I can accept that Eliza knows Alcyonian and Veronique to be reliable people, and that their impression of Gurdur being like some urbane Dr Jekyll is essentially truthful, if exaggerated. However, there are many two-faced people in the world judging by the aspect of their character, and so I suspect Alcyonian and Veronique have never seen the other major aspect of Gurdur’s personality, which when displayed revelling in the sulphurous stench of the slime pit at ERV’s blog, undeniably resembles a leering Mr Hyde.

  84. 84
    Stephanie Zvan

    Fixed it, Pierce.

  85. 85
    Stephanie Zvan

    don2, have you done what I told people to do in the original post? Have you gone into that thread and read a couple hundred comments out of the middle so you understand why the thread exists?

  86. 86
    don2

    Yes, of course I did.

    I don’t think you should make readers do that, though. I think for each of your bulleted objections you should have supplied concrete empirical evidence.

    As it is, there are certain objections I can see substantiated and certain I cannot. The ones substantiated are also the lesser ones to me personally…like whether Gurdur and PZ go at each other’s throats. I don’t care about that much.

    This is something I find more important “I object to your creating a list of female atheist speakers specifically to exclude outspokenly feminist atheists from that list.” I can read that there are some women there in the slimepit and you’ve named them. I can also read some comments about equity vs gender feminism in the slimepit and that 1 or more people seemed to like the idea of equity feminism. And I see that Gurdur is there and interacting with all of these people. What I haven’t observed (or maybe absorbed because perhaps it’s subtle or I just didn’t read the right posts the right way or because I don’t get many of the inside references and acronyms) is Gurdur “creating a list of female atheist speakers specifically to exclude outspokenly feminist atheists from that list.”

    Can you point out such proof of the implicit assertions in your objections? Do some of these assertions come from extra knowledge beyond just the archive?

    Thanks.

  87. 87
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    I have no problem bitch slapping you all by myself.

    LO)LOL oh yeah, no misogyny there. A women mocked you! And successfully, given how upset and angry you are!

    Threats of violence will shut her up! OVER THE INTERNET

    Congradulationg on humiliating yourself, internet tough dude.

  88. 88
    Stephanie Zvan

    I don’t think you should make readers do that, though. I think for each of your bulleted objections you should have supplied concrete empirical evidence.

    Like the “months of hate” objection. I should just pick out a specific comment written at one point in time that will provide empirical evidence of that. Uh-huh.

    The ones substantiated are also the lesser ones to me personally…

    That’s very nice for you. I’ll note the title of this thread is not “don2 Objects”.

    Can you point out such proof of the implicit assertions in your objections? Do some of these assertions come from extra knowledge beyond just the archive?

    That knowledge does come from the archive, but all that’s in the archive is a link. See the set of posts Simon linked to above.

    Also, you should probably be aware that “equity feminism” is a term for a self-proclaimed “non-empirical” stance that the only discrimination of any importance is discrimination in the law. In other words, every other kind of discrimination is just fine. Attaching the word “feminism” to this particular doctrine was sheer co-opting by the conservative think tank member who came up with it.

  89. 89
    Stephanie Zvan

    veronique, I don’t give a damn how Gurdur has treated you, aside from being happy for you that you haven’t been a target of a months-long hate campaign. That treatment doesn’t give you any right to dictate how I should feel about someone who has participated in one of those campaigns against me. It doesn’t give you any right to tell me I should take up Gurdur’s public behavior with him privately. It doesn’t even give you the right to spew those ridiculous effusions on my blog.

    If Gurdur makes you so very happy, take it up with Gurdur.

  90. 90
    Pierce R. Butler

    Stephanie Zvan @ # 84 – Thanks!

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