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Aug 22 2012

Maria Maltseva’s Big Laden Lie

At this point, I have no idea why anyone would trust a single thing that comes out of the mouth (or fingers) of Maria Maltseva, aka Bluharmony. She’s been caught in the middle of so many “Oh, I mispoke” and “Oh, I meant” and “Oh, why are you so mean as to hold me to what I said” moments that she really shouldn’t have a shred of credibility with anyone who’s been paying attention. But she’s at it again, and some people are eating it up because she’s lying about Greg Laden.

As an attorney, I can tell you that most people can’t afford to bring a libel lawsuit, so trashing people and lying about them is far more common than it should be. Also, a lot of us still don’t want to actually harm others, even after they’ve hurt us.

[...] 

On a personal note, and as I stated elsewhere, I don’t see why it was OK to publish my home address (where I was previously raped) but not Amy’s public address (and Jean, who is now defending Amy, snarled at me for complaining about it — oh, where was her super-sensitivity then?) Anyway, I don’t think Amy gets to dictate what people wear or find funny. And, unlike Amy, I don’t think that shirts supporting gender equality or parody jewelry are items that can or should be addressed in anti-harassment policies.

First paragraph included for the irony. Maltseva didn’t identify Greg here, but when another commenter claimed, “Greg Laden…published that alongside her real name and work info” (suggesting she’s been telling this story elsewhere), she responded.

First of all, thanks Julian, I appreciate your comment.

She didn’t correct the record then, and she didn’t correct it during a long Twitter conversation over the matter yesterday. So I’ll do it for her.

There were two posts on Greg’s blog in October. When Maltseva made a complaint in April, Greg reverted them to draft with the caveat that they would stay down only as long as she behaved herself and didn’t piss him off. I have copies of Maltseva’s request and Greg’s response. I think this can be handled without publishing those, but I do have them.

The reason Maltseva wanted the posts removed was that they ranked too high in her search listing and would interfere with her search for a job. In my personal opinion, she’s right about that last part. Maltseva’s showing in those posts and comments displays a personality I wouldn’t want to hire. Case in point:

I’m sorry, but I haven’t contacted you or Ophelia, or even posted about Rebecca for about three months. Someone brought it to my attention that defamatory content was posted about me in the Pharyngula Wikia. So I had it removed. I tagged you, Greg and PZ, so that you could respond as to why your friends engage in defamation, slander, libel, and other reprehensible conduct. As for you, Ophelia, I haven’t talked to or about you since the last nasty message you left on my page. As far as I know, nobody likes you, and you’re banned from every respectable blog. Also, braniacs, no one had to confirm that I was bluharmony, since it’s on my facebook page and both Ophelia and the Harvard-educated Greggie know it. BTW, everyone on Pharyngula seemed to think that the defamatory page was inappropriate, and it was immediately taken down. Oh, one more thing Ophelia, no one likes you, so get over yourself. And I lied about your writing. It’s utter shit.

Here’s that not-posting-about-Rebecca-in-three-months that prompted the blog post.

The first post was called “Maria Maltseva Can Kiss My Ass”. It was a public dismissal by Greg of a Facebook “friend” who was posting multiple anti-Rebecca Watson posts per day, not all of them terribly coherent. It was all of a paragraph long. Here’s a pdf of the thread as it stood at the time it was imported to Greg’s new blog location.

In the comments of that post, you can see that Greg questioned whether Maltseva was actually an attorney, since she was throwing words like “defamation, slander, libel” around with abandon in public. Commenter pelamun responded, saying that the Washington state bar had her listed. Either in that comment [ETA: pelamun notes in the comments here that it was not in that comment] or another comment very close by, either a link to Maltseva’s business showing the address or the address itself was included, further documenting that this was an attorney engaging in this behavior. I don’t remember the precise details, though I do remember that it happened.

Greg removed the information when he became aware that this was Maltseva’s home address as well as her business address. To be honest, I don’t know when that was. It might even have been as late as April. Why? Because Maltseva didn’t mention that this was her home address.

You can see that she continued to comment without a word about the problem. You can also see in the next post, “I Get Email” (pdf), that she complained to Greg about the existence of that post. Only the reason she wanted it taken down had nothing to do with her address. It was because someone called her a narcissist for having the number of Facebook profile pictures she did. She didn’t ask him to remove the address, if it was still there at that point. [ETA: She confirmed in the comments that she didn't tell Greg this was her home address or ask him to remove it.]

You can also see that the Phawrongula Wiki, that site dedicated to documenting how us awful, horrible FTB types crush everyone who dares to breathe a word of disagreement, wrote about the original “Maria Maltseva Can Kiss My Ass” post. As of today, that entry (pdf) says nothing at all about Maltseva’s address. They had six months to screen cap and post Greg’s perfidy. They didn’t, not there and not anywhere else Maltseva is mentioned on the wiki (pdf).

When did Maltseva start saying Greg had published her home address? I don’t know. The first mention of it I can find is in a comment a month after the post was taken down. At that point, she was also saying Greg’s post was sexist and threatening.

It doesn’t really matter when. This is part of a pattern of behavior on Maltseva’s part, some of it very well documented in those posts she didn’t want around while job searching. She lies. She lies about what has happened in interactions with people she doesn’t like, and she does it in ways that make her look good while they look bad. She lied about posting about Rebecca. She lied about the Pharyngula Wiki. She lied about a sexual assault task group wanting to sue Greg.

She lied about Greg publishing her home address. Then she let people tell her how bad it was that this bad person did this bad thing to her. She lied like she’s lied before, and people fell all over her for it. Other people used her lie as a tool to, ironically, beat on someone who doesn’t agree with them about everything.

It’s really time people learn not to do that.

288 comments

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  1. 1
    Jason Thibeault

    Hey, I remember that screenshot. It conflicts directly with other personal accounts of the hotel’s accommodations with regard to the existence of coffeemakers in the suites.

  2. 2
    bluharmony

    The hotel staff’s words and website are in conflict with your friends words? Nice.

  3. 3
    Jason Thibeault

    My friends? Or several people who attended that conference?

  4. 4
    Stephanie Zvan

    Really, Maria, that’s what you have to say for yourself?

  5. 5
    bluharmony

    Right, Greg threatened to publish again, like you just did, if I spoke up. Note, the my address was in one of the hate threads about me started by Greg, along with LinkedIn info and more. And I’m also being called sexist names like “bitch,” “sick puppy,” “mentally disabled” and so on, I’m being made fun of for my photos, called a lousy attorney, and a link to my home address is posted, along with the rest of my WSBA information.

    I have since had to change that information because of Laden’s actions. But we have to disclose this, so it has to be online. I can’t run around hiding like you do, Zvan.

  6. 6
    bluharmony

    Oh, I have one additional thing to say. You’re a mean & hateful person who doesn’t care about others and certainly doesn’t care about women. Good luck living your life like that. I really do mean that. It can’t be much fun.

  7. 7
    Jason Thibeault

    How many of those were Greg’s fault? And which ones? And what was he threatening to publish — the post he took down that you complained was ranked too high, or the addresses? You’re lying by conflation here.

  8. 8
    Stephanie Zvan

    Nobody threatened to publish your address. Someone did so accidentally while documenting that you were an attorney lying about a defamatory situation in which you claimed defamation.

    Publishing documentation of your lies is something else altogether. If you could stop lying to try to hurt other people, that would be easily avoided.

  9. 9
    bluharmony

    Jason — The hotel staff could be lying and there are no coffee makers in hotels in downtown Europe. And earlier you didn’t say “friends,” you said “friend.” Have more people come forward on this vital issue? Anyway, I’m not calling the hotel again, but you’re welcome to.

  10. 10
    bluharmony

    Right so my address was published in a hate thread along with work info and attorney ID number, then later a screencap from linked in. That’s all I ever said, Steph.

  11. 11
    Stephanie Zvan

    Drop the stupid coffee-maker stuff, everyone, right now. That’s not what this is about, and it won’t be derailed into a discussion of anything but bluharmony’s lies.

  12. 12
    Stephanie Zvan

    That’s not all you ever said, Maria. You let a lot of people around you say that Greg posted your information. You spoke to those people. You thanked them for their help and their sympathy. You didn’t correct anyone until I pointed out that you were lying.

  13. 13
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    I’ll say again what I said at that time on Greg’s blog: I find her behaviour deeply disturbing and I really, really think that Maria should get help.
    Not because I want to pull a bit of ableism and shout “mentally ill people stfu*”. Because I still worry about her.
    Maybe I’m just showing a bit of “reverse sexism” in stillattributing her behaviour to mental problems rather than her just being a malicious asshole, but I think the pattern of behaviour suggest the former.

    *Hey, to get it off the table, I’m seeing a therapist, too. It’s a good thing to get help.

  14. 14
    bluharmony

    OK, so where’s the documentation of my lies? You just admitted that my home address was in Laden’s thread and he wouldn’t take it down until I contacted Ed. He later took down the Linked In screen shot, too, but only after I contacted Ed one more time. That post read “at management request.” He made that post about six months after my last comment on this issue and immediately after my mother had a serious stroke. The reason he mad the post because he was accidentally included in an automatically generated group of contact requests from me when I first signed up for the Linked In service.

    Three nasty posts about me, and I’m the one trying to hurt someone? Good try.

  15. 15
    Stephanie Zvan

    Maria, where did you tell anyone that was your home address? Where did you ask Greg to take it down? “Wouldn’t” says he refused. That’s a lie. And saying, “Oh, Greg was mean to me” doesn’t make it not a lie.

    This isn’t hard.

  16. 16
    bluharmony

    Actually, that’s four posts. All because I said that FTBs aren’t a good place to be and there are better atheist leaders than Watson. Oh, and that men don’t need to cross the street for me. And that I’m not afraid of elevators. Amazing.

    Gilliel — would you like it if someone linked to your work info, LinkedIn info, and home address in a hate threat specifically designed to come up first in a Google search (until then, I was posting under the name “bluharmony”), and was constantly calling you names? I doubt it. Anyway, I’m glad you’re seeking therapy with whatever issues you have, and I hope it helps.

  17. 17
    Stephanie Zvan

    Also, there are more lies documented in the post. If you need reminding of what they are, they’re summarized at the bottom.

  18. 18
    AdamTM

    You are all insane.

    What the fuck is this shit? Oprah?

  19. 19
    bluharmony

    My comment about Ophelia was stupid, but it was made in anger after I was called all sorts of names, and made fun of mercilessly on Ophelia’s blog. Her writing is good; her personality is something else.

    As for staying away from the issue, you’re conflating Greg’s three threads.

    And I never said the ridiculous stuff about a sexual assault group wanting to sue Greg. I said sexual assault attorneys are disturbed by the incident in the elevator being classified as some sort of sexual misconduct. And I said that the lies spread about me “may be” grounds for a libel suit, which I would never pursue.

    Looks like you’re continuing with the lies, though.

  20. 20
    Stephanie Zvan

    All because I said that FTBs aren’t a good place to be and there are better atheist leaders than Watson. Oh, and that men don’t need to cross the street for me. And that I’m not afraid of elevators.

    Lie. Greg posted first because you kept tagging him on Facebook. Then to document you saying he’d be sued. Then because the absurdity of getting a LinkedIn request from you was too much.

    …hate threat specifically designed to come up first in a Google search (until then, I was posting under the name “bluharmony”)…

    Lie. You tagged Greg using “Maria Maltseva”. You can read the comments. He didn’t connect you to “bluharmony” until later.

    More lies won’t help you here.

  21. 21
    bluharmony

    It’s a pathetic attempt to get blog hits, Adam.

  22. 22
    Eristae

    I don’t understand. WHY did Laden post what he thought was her work address? For what purpose?

  23. 23
    bluharmony

    I tagged Greg exactly once on Facebook. Prove that I did it more times. Prove it through Facebook, they have records and so does he.

  24. 24
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    No, bluharmony, I would not like that, I don’t support that, and I actually don’t agree with the way Greg runs his blogs. I’m with you on those issues. But that’s not the point of my worries.
    You spin this tale into something different, omiting your doings and you do that in a way that’s rather disturbing. It was back then, it is still now.

  25. 25
    bluharmony

    It was a commenter who posted, but he wouldn’t remove it until I contacted ED, even though I was really upset about it. And he intentionally tried to poison my job search when my mother was seriously ill (and I was her caretaker).

  26. 26
    Stephanie Zvan

    Erista, Greg didn’t post it. Someone else was documenting that she was indeed an attorney using what they thought was a work address.

  27. 27
    Jack

    Cat fight!

  28. 28
    Stephanie Zvan

    AdamTM, you came over here from the slime pit. You should really have enough background to know what’s going on.

  29. 29
    Jason Thibeault

    Erista: He did not post her address. A commenter posted her business address to show she was listed on the bar, which was coincidentally her home address. Greg removed that comment.

    Maria: “controversialist blogging” doesn’t increase blog hits, especially not by defending someone from attack by someone else who thinks every time someone points out that she’s lying she’s being attacked. And doubly especially when the person whose feet we’re holding to the fire for lying repeatedly, is effectively not a “big name” in the community.

  30. 30
    bluharmony

    Gilliel — I think you only have only a small part of the story. Constant attacks make you lash out unreasonably sometimes, as I did at Ophelia, and I’m truly sorry about that comment. Especially as it pertains to her writing. She’s very talented. And of course lots of people like her, she wouldn’t have a popular blog if they didn’t.

  31. 31
    tigzy

    Jesus, Steph – what is it about Laden which makes you so determined to salvage his utterly shredded reputation at all costs?

    He’s a nasty bit of work who made a threat of violence against one of your fellow FTB bloggers. Who cares if someone may or may not be lying about him? Let him sort it out, if it’s that important.

  32. 32
    Stephanie Zvan

    I’ll just repeat myself here, which I can do endlessly:

    Maria, where did you tell anyone that was your home address? Where did you ask Greg to take it down? “Wouldn’t” says he refused. That’s a lie.

  33. 33
    Stephanie Zvan

    So, tigzy, what you’re saying is Greg is Fair Game?

  34. 34
    bluharmony

    Jason, my address was up for months, and there was nothing I could do about it. I finally checked with a friend, and he suggested contacting ED, which I did. Posting — or linking to — my business address would have been just as bad, by the way.

    Clearly if I took actions to get the address changed, which I did, I wanted it removed.

  35. 35
    Eristae

    Erista: He did not post her address. A commenter posted her business address to show she was listed on the bar, which was coincidentally her home address. Greg removed that comment.

    Oh. Hmm. Then I’m going to have to echo the,”Where/when/how was Laden asked to take it down?”

  36. 36
    Jason Thibeault

    Keeping your criticisms of a person factual, tigzy, is kinda fundamental to being part of any skeptical community.

  37. 37
    bluharmony

    Stephanie, Greg blocked me, so I couldn’t do on the site.

  38. 38
    tigzy

    @Stephanie

    Yes.

    I’d draw the line at threatening him with violence, however. Some of us do have moral standards, after all.

  39. 39
    bluharmony

    He was asked via email.

  40. 40
    Stephanie Zvan

    Maria, you understand that doesn’t fit what we have documented, right? You contacted Greg repeatedly after that address was posted. You just didn’t ask him to take it down. And now you’re lying about having to contact Ed to make it happen.

  41. 41
    oolon

    I agree with AdamTMs Oprah analogy… I’ve had an argument or two with Maria on Thunderf00ts blog. I did not agree with her and felt she was grandstanding for the benefit of the MRAs, terms like fauxminist are not helpful in being taken seriously. I think she has a perfect right to hold her views about the relative merits of 2nd and 3rd wave feminism… Where I had a problem was in the irrationality of the feeling towards FtBs and I felt this was warping her opinion on the issues and led to her thinking it was fine for TF to write an article laughing at Surly Amy for crying. Which is where Maria let rip with a litany of crimes from her detractors here.

    Now I truly believe that Maria feels these are valid and real gripes – whether one persons objective viewing of the facts would lead them to the same conclusion is up for debate. But why drag it all over again here – Greg is not damaged by her comments on twitter or on TF’s blog. In fact if you want to see some libel against Greg then look at what others say on there – Maria is extremely polite about him in comparison.

    Now I got accused of white knighting because I was ‘nice’ to Maria on TFs blog – actually she argued in good faith so I was forced to respond in kind. I really don’t know if ‘she’ is a ‘she’ but regardless of that – lay off – attack her views and ideas all you want but dragging up ‘she said, who said what’ playground disputes is beneath you and fuel for the FTBullies fire.

  42. 42
    bluharmony

    Proof?

  43. 43
    Eristae

    @bluharmony Do you still have a copy of the sent mail? I ask because my gmail account never deletes anything; I have copies of things I sent in 2009.

  44. 44
    bluharmony

    Eris, I think I do. Would you like me to forward it to you?

  45. 45
    Stephanie Zvan

    From the comment of Maria’s I linked in the post:

    The reason I didn’t ask you to take down the defamatory posts earlier is because you asked me not to email you and I complied, but then I was told to do so by the person who hosts your site.

    She documented that she didn’t send Greg an email about the address.

  46. 46
    Stephanie Zvan

    oolon, the “why” is that she’s gotten someone with more credibility than she has to repeat the lie for her. It’s time it stops.

  47. 47
    bluharmony

    Also, just my comment that Stephanie links to implies that I have asked Greg to take down posts before:

    “So please take this post down, as it is also untrue.” This was after he took down the first two (after I contacted Ed). Again, remember my crimes — I complained about Rebecca Watson and said that men shouldn’t have to cross the street.

  48. 48
    Eristae

    @bluharmony Sure. My email address is [email protected]

    And to all the nittwits who might decide to send me stupid emails: this is my junk email and I only ever open things I’m expecting. It became such after my email somehow got linked to some Kabbalah thing and I began receiving near endless emails in Arabic from near endless senders, thus preventing me from blocking the spam. So if you send me stupid shit, I will not spend any time on it at all.

  49. 49
    Stephanie Zvan

    Before? Yes. Before talking to Ed? It says quite the opposite. So you lied when you said Greg “wouldn’t” take the address down.

  50. 50
    bluharmony

    @Oolon – Yep, usually my comments about Greg, Ophelia, and the rest are extremely polite compared to those of others. But that only makes it worse for these people. They want the “haters” to sound irrational and angry, and, at one point, they got to me too.

  51. 51
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    bluharmony
    I’m fully aware that I’m not in posession of all the facts. And I’m aware that highly charged emotional situations make us lash out (which is a bit ironic that you cite that as your defense but don’t extend that grace to other people like Greg)
    Also, the problem with the “constant attacks” you cite is that these attacks (oh, I don’t deny you were attacked. You still are) were quite a result of you deciding to go to other people’s blogs, FB pages and such and engage them.
    I don’t go to the slimepit. Yet you still decided to constantly go to Greg.
    I also remember that one of the comment sections was deleted after Greg agreed with my concerns (that were seconded by others) about your wellbeing.

  52. 52
    bluharmony

    Zvan, why did he write those posts in the first place and make my full name the searchable tag and headline? And why did he think it was OK to leave them up? And then to post my LinkedIn info? And to reveal my full name in a hate thread so that people could do their own searches? And to leave the address in his blog for months? I only tagged him once on Facebook, and you linked to that post in your thread. I actually defended him when I was at Abbie’s (I was wrong to). I only got upset after he called me sexist names relentlessly & tried to get Abbie disciplined/fired.

    It looks like he’s trying to destroy the careers of women he doesn’t like, Abbie and I are perfect examples.

  53. 53
    Stephanie Zvan

    Maria, is that how you say, “Yes, I lied about Greg”?

  54. 54
    bluharmony

    Gilliel -I had no idea the discussions would degenerate in this fashion. Initially I was only talking about the issues (like crossing the street), but I was truly shocked when I got a host of personal attacks in response. It’s never happened to me before, and I didn’t know how to deal with it. Typically, I get along with everyone. Also, I was upset about the attacks on others – Stef, Dawkins, etc. I thought the atheist/secularist movement was supposed to be about being better than that and setting a good example for others.

  55. 55
    Paul

    Jason, my address was up for months, and there was nothing I could do about it.

    You still haven’t answered explicitly if you asked Greg to remove it, or even let him know that it was a home address and not a business address as was assumed.

    Honestly, even on this blog at FTB there is a fair number of people primed to dislike or assume the worst of Laden. But that doesn’t excuse your refusal to answer very simple questions that would indicate that Stephanie is wrong when she says you’re lying.

  56. 56
    Eristae

    Disclaimer: I think that posting someone’s work address when that person is not acting under their own name is completely and utterly unacceptable*. Any such posting should be removed immediately when the administrator notices the post, whether or not the person whose address it is contacts the administrator. For example, I deeply respected the fact that PZ removed the identity of Pappa (that guy who was making the rape joke) as soon as he saw it, without waiting for Pappa to need to contact PZ. That is how I think things should be handled.

    That being said, I completely and utterly do not understand what this whole situation is/was about, so I’m not passing judgement either way; I’m not doing anything other than scratching my head in puzzlement.

    *There may be some kind of exception that someone can come up with to this, but for the purpose of this post, no one is even alleging that bluharmony did something that I think would invoke such an exception.

  57. 57
    Paul

    Sorry, I had a very stale page apparently and missed subsequent posts.

  58. 58
    bluharmony

    @Zvan: No. Is that how you answer my questions? Aside from three blog posts about me, he also started a nasty Facebook thread, dragging me through the mud there and disclosing private communications.

    You think this makes Greg look good? Keep thinking that.

  59. 59
    Jason Thibeault

    Bear in mind that Greg knew Maria from Facebook, where she kept pinging him on things repeatedly, and Maria had at that time not been using “bluharmony” as her name. The screenshot shows that. Greg didn’t “out bluharmony”, he referred to the person he knew on Facebook.

  60. 60
    Stephanie Zvan

    Maria, I’m ignoring everything you have to say that isn’t directly about your lies. I may go back later and document more lies in those comments, because they’re there, but they’re a distraction.

  61. 61
    bluharmony

    Also, since I was sincerely afraid of Greg after seeing what he had done to others, my first emails requesting removal, it appears, were to Ed. Ed then told me to contact Greg, which I did, while cc’ing Ed.

    To that extent, I was mistaken.

  62. 62
    Eristae

    Bear in mind that Greg knew Maria from Facebook, where she kept pinging him on things repeatedly, and Maria had at that time not been using “bluharmony” as her name. The screenshot shows that. Greg didn’t “out bluharmony”, he referred to the person he knew on Facebook.

    Ooooh.

    Yeah, I think the whole, “I completely and utterly do not understand what this whole situation” statement I made is becoming increasingly evident.

    So confusing to me. O_O

  63. 63
    bluharmony

    Jason, those are lies.

  64. 64
    Jason Thibeault

    But not to the extent that basically nobody told Greg that the address was your home address rather than the business address the commenter found, or to the extent that Greg wasn’t the one who posted it, or that Greg “wouldn’t” remove that address because your FIRST request came months after it happened and only to Ed, not to Greg!?

    Wow.

  65. 65
    Stephanie Zvan

    Erista, there are very good reasons to know whether the person accusing you of defamation is an attorney. Attorneys can get into an awful lot of trouble for doing that falsely, although bluharmony seems to forget that frequently. Posting the details that prove that rather than just providing a link isn’t as smart as it could be, but the knowledge was useful in the context.

  66. 66
    bluharmony

    It wouldn’t much matter if it were my business address to a stalker, would it? But it was, indeed, my home address.

    No one disputes that my home address was in his thread, that it should have been removed even if it were my work address, and that he repeatedly tried to destroy my career and my life. This thread confirms it. My address or work info isn’t on FB because I have a maxed out friends list and subscribers.

  67. 67
    Stephanie Zvan

    What lies did Jason tell, Maria? Can you document them, because I don’t take your word for anything at this point.

  68. 68
    oolon

    This is the first post where I would even slightly agree with FTBullies… Maria is no where near as much a sceptical nobody as me but I doubt her blog gets close to the readership of this one. To use a platform like this to take someone to task on who ‘exactly’ posted her address on facebook and did she ask for it to be taken down is in my opinion pathetic. What is the aim? To stand up for Greg who obviously cannot stand up for himself…. Pardon me if there appear to be some personal issues here that shouldn’t be aired in public.

    Maltseva’s showing in those posts and comments displays a personality I wouldn’t want to hire

    Childish name calling… Something I actually like to engage in but only to those that really deserve it. Some examples of Greg hate that surpass Maria by some orders of magnitude.
    Strakh:

    Greg is a mangina, a mantwat, and a pure cunt.
    This man contributes to a disease that is infecting our society and he needs to know that we don’t care for it.

    John Greg:

    Laden, you truly are one of the sickest, most vile, dishonest pieces of dog vomit I’ve ever run across on the Internet. You and Tibbydiedoh should head on back to the trailer park and give each other gummies.

    John Welch:

    …his obsession with infantilizing women, convincing them they’re helpless without big brother greg to protect them from an evil cruel world, his attempts to provoke PTSD episodes in veterans, etc. He’s a despicable human being at every turn, and he revels in it.

    Ok so I disagree with Maria – and she is probably wrong about the whole facebook thing… But WTF is up with this whole fucking post -> In Ali G voice ‘Is it ‘cos she is a woman’? Gender traitor who should know better so she deserves it!

  69. 69
    bluharmony

    In the context of Laden’s lies? I told him that his conduct was potentially defamatory, which it was, he called that “a threat.”

  70. 70
    bluharmony

    Anyway, thank you for confirming that my address was indeed in Laden’s threads and he did nothing about it until Ed was in the picture. I’m out of here.

  71. 71
    Eristae

    Someone told me that the work addresses and/or contact information of attorneys are public record and must be published in a way that the public may access them. Is that true?

    PS: I was told this during the whole Oatmeal vs that weird lawyer whose name I have forgotten thing.

  72. 72
    Stephanie Zvan

    oolon, you’ve already gotten an answer. Also, the stuff you post is just name-calling. This is a lie about Greg’s behavior that is being repeated by people who should know better and could cost him where names can’t.

  73. 73
    Eristae

    Anyway, thank you for confirming that my address was indeed in Laden’s threads and he did nothing about it until Ed was in the picture. I’m out of here.

    I thought that Laden wasn’t contacted until Ed was in the picture?

  74. 74
    bluharmony

    Erista — just like trademark info. Same situation as Surly, except there was no conduct on my part to instigate it (such as the DMCA notices). We have no choice in the matter. It’s OK to get a P.O. Box, however. (I de-flounced; re-flounce.)

  75. 75
    Eristae

    Well, I’m going to go look what trademark info is, then. Because I have no clue.

    Biology grad student here. Law gobblydegook is beyond my poor genetics riddled brain.

  76. 76
    bluharmony

    Erista, yes, I think Ed was contacted first since Laden scared me and made vaguely threatening comments, if memory serves correctly. But the initial issue wasn’t whether he refused to remove them, but whether he allowed them to be posted in a hate thread that he started. Zvan changed the direction midstream. Basically, Zvan enjoys this kind of thing. She’s not really helping Greg in any way, because what he did to more important people, like Abbie and Justin, is public knowledge. All she’s doing is writing a post specifically to hurt me. There’s no other reason for it, because it’s not clearing Greg’s name. The address was there, along with a lot of hateful comments, including “bitch,” “sick puppy,” and many, many others. *Reflounce*

  77. 77
    Paul

    Erista — just like trademark info. Same situation as Surly, except there was no conduct on my part to instigate it (such as the DMCA notices).

    Wait — a valid DMCA notice is considered sufficient conduct on a person’s part to justify getting their address and dropping dox (saying “I’m not doing x” while doing x doesn’t change objective reality)? Do you listen to yourself?

  78. 78
    Greg Laden

    As a rule, when people ask me to unpost something or edit out a comment I comply even if I don’t agree. That is my policy. It is also my policy to respond to legal threats by sending a form email to the person making the threat then to mostly ignore them (thus, I don’t take down a lot of posts people ask me to take down because they come with such threats) and I don’t compromise on the science (thus I don’t take down or change the Global Warming posts even though I am constantly being asked to). But for irrelevant chatty or newsy stuff, or highly charged political stuff, I’ll alter/remove as per suggestions. I’m a nice guy that way, for those who ask without first sending the “I’ll sue your ass” salvo over the fence.

    Of course, there is no way to win with complainers, whingers, and haters, who are usually too narrow minded and blindered that the larger issues are not available for their own consideration. This is the case with Maria and many of the slimepitters. I’m sure we actually agree on many important issues of politics and feminism, but because I happen to think Rebecca Watson’s dating advice to guys was both apropos and funny, I am a bad person. Go figure.

    Removing a post on request, however, would not have applied to the post that specifically made good on my agreement with Maria, which she broke. Indeed, the two blog posts referred to earlier are sitting there in the “unposted” category of The X Blog and can be turned back on at any moment, as per that agreement. I’m not doing it, though because, again, I’m such a fucking nice guy. Meanwhile, Maria needs to learn when to shut up (but see below) Having said that, my policy of removing on request certainly would have applied to a comment with her address on it. But I don’t recall any such comment. I’m not saying it never happened. It was probably just not important.

    Regarding the situation with the linked in post and Ed… first, I note that Maria has changed her story in the above thread and the post-making-it-all-up version is as I remember it. However, Ed was wrong to ask me to take that post down. His reasoning was that he was getting endless whinging obnoxious emails from Maria, and he didn’t want that any more. My liberty as a blogger was less important to him than his inbox. He did not think that through, and I’m sure I could have gotten him to understand the error of his ways, but I decided to just take the linked in post down (he asked me to do so, and explicitly said he was not requiring me to do so) because it was the easiest thing to do, and to give Maria a break. Again, I’m too nice sometimes.

    I agree with Giliell, not to be confused with The Borg. This raises an interesting set of questions, though. When someone acts very badly and keeps coming back again and again, it gets annoying, it is potentially harassment, etc. etc. But if that person is doing this because of some sort of mental disability, then it is not malicious, right? Is it OK that they are doing it? Is it bad to complain or try to make them stop? The problem with this is that whether we are justifiably mad at someone vs. not is a matter of whether or not we have decided that they are just a pain in the ass (or some kind of “bad person”) or if they happen to be mentally ill. As far as I can tell, there are no clear guidelines or accepted conventions in this regard, wether it has to do with crappy internet behavior, or legal issues. Having said all that, there are strong signs that Maria is in need of some sort of help. I first became aware of her when she posted several comments, and sent me several emails via facebook using “maria” that were very sympathetic to my positions on various issues, but at the same time posted under “bluharmony” on Abbie Smith’s slimepit threads the opposite sentiment. (Or do I have the use of names reversed … no matter). At first I thought she was joking. She was almost playing out a parody of a TV comedic Schizophrenic. But she was serious, and she was annoying. Over time I also noted the episodic nature of her forays. I take that as a possible indicator (though a very iffy one, there are a lot of reasons for this) of a personality disorder or episodic depression or someting. Giliell, I, everyone else here is not able to diagnose Maria via the internet. The fact that she is very annoying and that we can’t diagnose her fairly could mean that it is fair to treat her as a nuisance and nothing else. But the truth is, she really may be mentally ill and in need of help. So, at the risk of being an asshole by diagnosing someone over the intertubes, I may well just decide that she is mentally ill.

    But that still does not give her a pass to do what she often does. Does it?

    Zvan, why did he write those posts in the first place and make my full name the searchable tag and headline?

    I did that because I wanted you to stop doing what you were doing. You know this because it is what I told you then. Interesting that you now claim that you only started harassing me after I “tried to get Abbie fired.” Your memory is way, way off on the timing. Also, I was not trying to get Abbie fired. I simply arranged for some people who had some stake in her career (as a scientist and as a blogger, at her U and SB respectively) to speak to her and ensure that she did the right thing, which she did in fact do, more or less. Good on me for that, right?

  79. 79
    bluharmony

    Criticism of art is traditionally fair use. It was an image of art that was posted, right? I can’t say how any particular case would go, but that type of notice could be considered frivolous. Understand?

  80. 80
    oolon

    @Stephanie, ok so you really think people who are fine with saying that are not repeating a whole lot more lies? A whole lot worse lies? I really cannot be arsed to trawl the slimepit to prove 1=1.

    Personally I think saying he tries to provoke PTSD in veterans is a lot worse than he left some ones address on facebook for a while. Especially as there were no consequences that we know of in relation to that address being left there –> if there had then you’d have a point. If Maria wanted to lie and exaggerate then why not say death threats were sent to her address after it was posted? Or people stalked her? Maybe she is just not as imaginative as me…

    In terms of getting someone with credibility to repeat the lies making it worse then… And I cannot believe I’m saying TF has credibility but he does for some… Thunderf00t sez

    Honestly if I were in FTBs shoes I would worry about the other guy they expelled, Greg Laden, who also has access to all their personal data. He has a history of threatening people on FTB and stalking people elsewhere. Like tracking people down in real life and trying to get them fired (Abbie Smith of the blog ERV) etc etc. Notably this was all done while Greg was at FTBs.

    Again why single her out for this hatchet job?

  81. 81
    bluharmony

    Greg, whatever. :)

  82. 82
    Greg Laden

    oolan: “Honestly if I were in FTBs shoes I would worry about the other guy they expelled, Greg Laden, who also has access to all their personal data.”

    Please tell me what personal data I have access to exactly?

  83. 83
    Paul

    Criticism of art is traditionally fair use. It was an image of art that was posted, right? I can’t say how any particular case would go, but that type of notice could be considered frivolous. Understand?

    You’re ignoring that the image was under copyright and subject to the DMCA request, not the necklace. Was the post criticizing Amy’s photography skills?

    Even assuming that the DMCA request was frivolous (it seems very clear that it was not, and no cogent argument has been provided otherwise), what about that would make it fair to post her home address? Again, do you listen to yourself?

  84. 84
    bluharmony

    @Oolon – I’m easy prey, because I don’t respond in kind and because, as Stephanie said, I’m just not relevant or important. Also, I refuse to comment on these issues on my blog, which is actually about skepticism, atheism, humanism, and freethought.

  85. 85
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    <bluharmony

    No one disputes that my home address was in his thread, that it should have been removed even if it were my work address, and that he repeatedly tried to destroy my career and my life

    Yes, yes, no.
    Saying that you aren’t somebody you would hire is no attempt to destroy a career.
    There’s nothing to show that Greg knew you were looking for a job and posted those things intentionally to poison your google search.
    Fact is, at that time it looked like you didn’t fucking care about the adress.

    Also, not using bad words does not mean you’re nice or polite.
    Just looking at your twitter account shows anybody that you’re really prone to lying like saying:
    “What’s regrettable is that it’s rarely mentioned that TAM was 1st to implement a harassment policy”

  86. 86
    bluharmony

    Geez. I don’t think it was OK to post her home address. Or the link to mine. How do you show art on the web to criticize it? Via a photo. That’s how it’s always done. And I believe she calls herself a photographer as well, although I’m not sure. I have no clue how an actual legal case would turn out though; I’m not a copyright lawyer.

    I can’t stick a flounce, of that I am sure.

  87. 87
    Eristae

    Okay! I guess I have several sections to this.

    1) bluharmony was operating under her real name for at least part of this (as per the screenshot in the post).

    2) Lawyers must make public their business address, which may be a physical address or a P.O. Box.

    3) bluharmony is a lawyer.

    4) bluharmony made her physical business address available and not a P.O. Box.

    5) bluharmony’s physical business address is/was also her physical home address.

    6) Laden did not know that the business address was also bluharmony’s her home address.

    7) Someone other than Laden made the post with the address.

    8) Ed was contacted about taking the address down first, and then Laden was contacted.

    Is this all correct, or have I gotten something wrong?

  88. 88
    oolon

    @Greg, don’t ask me to interpret Thunderf00ts deranged ramblings! Seriously though I think he was saying Gregs a shit too and look he was on the private listserv so I’m not the worst baddie that had access!

  89. 89
    bluharmony

    Gilleil — This is from Greg’s post above, he knew. I can’t remember everything that was said months ago, but I was extremely upset about it. So much so that I did end up seeing a therapist because I was too scared to stay in my home alone:

    “I did [include your legal name in the tag and headline] because I wanted you to stop doing what you were doing. You know this because it is what I told you then.” — Laden

    What I was doing was discussing the issues, and even attempting to make peace, at some point. But I gave up on that, because it’s clear there’s no peace to be had.

    Greg — I sincerely appreciate the fact that you’re not going to repost those blog entries. Thank you.

  90. 90
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    I honestly pity you, Bluharmony.

    It’s like you honestly think the people of the Slymepit like you as a person, and not just because you’re a Chill Girl who parrots their views.

    When you’re not spinning bizarre versions of the truth, your writing has about as much substance as homeopathic water, and it’s getting kinda sad.

    I can’t summon even an ounce of hate for you, only pity.

  91. 91
    Paul

    Geez. I don’t think it was OK to post her home address.

    Just to confirm, that means you’re retracting the following comment?

    Same situation as Surly, except there was no conduct on my part to instigate it (such as the DMCA notices).

    Because if there was no implicit blame or justification for the “outing”, your claiming to be a lawyer is just as easily “conduct on [your] part to instigate” someone posting your business address (which you did not attempt to contact Greg about, by your own admission, contrary to your earlier claims about needing Ed to make him).

    How do you show art on the web to criticize it? Via a photo.

    This does not nullify a photographer’s right to determine how their work is used. Take your own photo or get permission to use someone else’s.

    And I believe she calls herself a photographer as well, although I’m not sure.

    This doesn’t magically make criticism of an item that she takes a picture of criticism of the picture itself.

  92. 92
    SallyStrange

    The thing that baffles me is why Maria Maltseva, a lawyer, makes all sorts of crazy-ass postings under her real name. Was she not paying attention in law school to all the stuff they say about reputation?

  93. 93
    oolon

    @Greg, forgot to add I think you are a shit sometimes too :-) the Justin email was one incident and now I have intimating (Calling really) Maria is mentally ill. Even if true it has absolutely no bearing and looks like you being an absolute arse to get back at someone who annoyed you on the internet.

    So, at the risk of being an asshole by diagnosing someone over the intertubes, I may well just decide that she is mentally ill.

    Asshole…Check!

    As an aside if you really think Maria is mentally ill, possibly schizophrenic, then I suggest you get some armed guards to ward off strakh, mike kingsford grey, john welch, branfromars, hannanibal and all the others on TF’s blog who have a massive amount of hate for you and sure are annoying and persistent. Phawrongula anyone?

  94. 94
    Greg Laden

    oolan: Blinders. You haz them. Did you even try to think about what I wrote regarding mental illness? No, you did not.

  95. 95
    bluharmony

    Erista, that is all correct. Except Laden demanded that I not contact him, so that made a direct request to remove anything difficult. I did discuss the fact that my address was up on his blog constantly (hence the reaction from Zvan) and that it came up as the first result on Google, but having read Greg’s post in this thread, I’ll agree to the possibility that he didn’t know it was there if he doesn’t read the comments on his blog posts. At this point, I don’t remember every comment on his blog posts either.

    But to say that publishing my address is OK because I had to disclose it (or my business address or P.O. Box) is the same as saying that publishing Surly’s is OK because of the trademark law. It’s not OK in either context, especially, as is true for both of us, when posted for the benefit of those who hate us.

  96. 96
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Erista
    Yes, that’s about it.
    Only to mention that there was quite a lot of time between 7 and 8 and that bluharmony interacted with Greg for quite some time after 7.

    How do you show art on the web to criticize it? Via a photo. That’s how it’s always done

    Geez, yes, and you need to have a legal permission to use that photo, because that is copyrighted.

  97. 97
    Eristae

    PS:

    Whether or not Maria Maltseva is mentally ill (I have no way of knowing) I am. So, please, let’s not play the “If someone does something I think is stupid, they must be mentally ill, and if they’re mentally ill, anything they have to say is to be disregarded” game.

  98. 98
    CommanderTuvok

    Wait – a valid DMCA notice is considered sufficient conduct on a person’s part to justify getting their address and dropping dox (saying “I’m not doing x” while doing x doesn’t change objective reality)? Do you listen to yourself?

    Interesting…because somebody recently doc dropped ‘elevatorGATE’ (the Twitter account). This was shortly after somebody used a DMCA to get their personal details……

    I agree – it is completely wrong.

  99. 99
    Eristae

    Trademark law says that Surly Amy has to post her address?

    Jesus Christ, this shit is complicated in a way I had never imagined.

  100. 100
    Paul

    then I suggest you get some armed guards to ward off strakh, mike kingsford grey, john welch, branfromars, hannanibal and all the others on TF’s blog who have a massive amount of hate for you and sure are annoying and persistent.

    Far be it for me to defend Greg, but he didn’t say that having “a massive amount of hate for” him or being annoying and persistent were signs of mental illness. Feel free to try using your brain any time now.

  101. 101
    oolon

    @Greg, I did read your half arsed attempt to justify what was plainly an attempt to shut down Maria and make her out to be some loon not worthy of respect. I actually agree that her ‘side’ often displays irrational hatred of all things FtBs and especially all things Greggy.

    Please read and think about Erista’s comment – it is a shit move to use mental illness in that way.

  102. 102
    bluharmony

    You do not need permission under the fair use doctrine. With permission any agreed to use is OK.

  103. 103
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Erista

    So, please, let’s not play the “If someone does something I think is stupid, they must be mentally ill, and if they’re mentally ill, anything they have to say is to be disregarded” game.

    No, I don’t want to do that. My concerns about her mental health stems from actual worries about bluharmony. What she says should not be disregarded, but it worries me.

  104. 104
    Ben Zvan

    This is totally off topic, but the copyright thing is bugging me. You may use a work of art under fair use if you are critiquing that piece of art.

    So…

    If you are critiquing the work of Surly Amy, you may show her artwork. If you are critiquing a photograph of the work of Surly Amy, you may use that photograph. If you are critiquing the work of Surly Amy, you may not use a photograph of that work without permission from the photographer.

  105. 105
    oolon

    @Paul,

    Far be it for me to defend Greg, but he didn’t say that having “a massive amount of hate for” him or being annoying and persistent were signs of mental illness. Feel free to try using your brain any time now.

    Brain engaged… Read some of the comments I posted here or even have a look on TFs blog. They appear to be completely unhinged in their hatred of Greg. And I don’t mean mentally ill – having a hard-on for hating on someone over minor disagreements is very typical human behaviour.

    Gregs earth-shattering ‘evidence’ to make this, very demeaning to people with actual mental illness, insult… Is.. She posted differing opinions on different blogs. A more obvious interpretation is that she is a devious git trying to suck up to him to get some goss for her mates that hate him. Making the call to mental illness is, again, insulting to people with real mental illness. Especially when juxtaposed to an article attacking her for being a lying obsessive – it smacks of a put down based on mental illness which is not acceptable!

  106. 106
    bluharmony

    It is my understanding that that would still be covered under fair use, whereas the photo of Amy probably wouldn’t, unless it was taken for artistic purposes and criticized as such. However, it might be acceptable to use it as identification of the artist. The law is murky, and you can’t really say for sure. The only thing I can say is that the recent flurry of DMCA requests doesn’t seem reasonable. The Act wasn’t enacted to silence criticism of a person or an artwork, but to prevent people from claiming it as their own or distributing it for profit.

    Again, I repeat, publishing her address was not a good idea, even if public. Such info should be removed, especially from hate threads.

  107. 107
    Jason Thibeault

    Erista: no, it is required by the DMCA that you disclose your address as part of a claim or counterclaim. If you counterclaim, you get to see the claimant’s address, and vice versa.

    People talking about fair use: first you have to prove it’s fair use. One way is to prove that you’ve transformed at least 16% of the work (according to some apparent prior judgments, like by reducing it to a thumbnail apparently counts), or that you’re using the original in a criticism of that specific piece of art. Since the “good gentleman” who posted it on his blog originally did not, nor need to, specifically include that image because he did not reference it or criticize it at all; since he replaced it with a photoshopped Surly (thus transforming it more than 16%); and since he reposted it on A Voice for Men without that image altogether; it was obviously not important to the post. Proving fair use is up to him. He might even convince a judge, or with a good lawyer bluster enough that the judge throws the whole thing out. Either way, he’s not convincing me. While I’m no lawyer, I do understand a fair bit more fair use than is evident in this thread and the common-sensical approaches to what is ultimately a ridiculous copyright regime.

  108. 108
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    You do not need permission under the fair use doctrine. With permission any agreed to use is OK.

    head->desk
    Fair use grants you the right to use the material you actually criticise. The foto itself wasn’t criticised, even the artwork wasn’t really criticised, but Amy as a person and her views.
    You can’t just use a scene from “Mr. and Mrs. Smith” to criticise Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt.

  109. 109
    bluharmony

    See what I wrote above your post, Giliell.

  110. 110
    oolon

    @”Giliell, not to be confused with The Borg” FFS if it bothers you then talk to her personally and privately. Otherwise you look like a massive douche invoking ‘possible mental illness’ when discussing some ones so called obsessive behaviours. It is a way of minimising and shutting them down and very insulting to people with real mental illness.

    If you or Greg think

    She was almost playing out a parody of a TV comedic Schizophrenic

    Then you can be pretty fucking sure she does not have schizophrenia given the accuracy of TV depictions of mental illness – that are oh so funny! /derail into insults over I hope… Try discussing on Thunderdome how appropriate it is to invoke mental illness in a discussion like this.

  111. 111
    bluharmony

    Jason, fair use is a defense to a copyright claim. You are correct when you say that the defendant would have to show fair use (unless the judge threw out the case because the defense was obvious). But criticizing art is typically considered fair use without need for making changes to the artwork, obviously. I have not read the post with non-parody images of Surly’s work, so I can’t comment on whether there was criticism of the art. But I believe, though I’m not certain, that for Amy to bring an actual case, the work would have to be not only copyrighted, but registered.

  112. 112
    Jason Thibeault

    Copyright is automatic and entitles you to defend it; registration entitles you to damages and lawyers’ fees.

    There was no criticism of the art, neither the necklaces nor the photos, only criticism of Amy and her philosophies.

  113. 113
    Paul

    Making the call to mental illness is, again, insulting to people with real mental illness.

    Good, then that should be your complaint. That doesn’t mean that the part of your post I was objecting to was any less silly.

  114. 114
    Ben Zvan

    That is not correct. A photograph is a distinct work of art and subject to it’s own copyright. Anyone using a photograph without license from the photographer is in violation of copyright regardless of the subject. Go ask the “nice” lawyers at AP or Getty about that, they’ll be more than happy to inform you.

  115. 115
    bluharmony

    Jason — I believe that’s correct. Registration must exist before you can file a case in court, but not before filing a DMCA notice.

  116. 116
    Ben Zvan

    …and to clarify what Jason says above:
    Copyright is automatic and immediate upon creation.
    Publication formally establishes earliest use.
    Any use without license entitles you to compensation for use. Registration with the copyright office establishes date of copyright and entitles you to damages and lawyers’ fees resulting from suit for compensation for use after the date of registration.

  117. 117
    Eristae

    @Giliell

    The thing is that I see no reason, justification, or qualification for deciding that bluharmony is mentally ill. If a person is wildly hateful and lies a lot (say, Rush Limbaugh), that doesn’t mean that the person is mentally ill, and even if the person was, that wouldn’t mean that their behavior is a result of mental illness.

    Trying to decide if someone has a mental illness is no easy thing, even for people who have been trained to make diagnoses. Having untrained people speculate about potential mental illnesses of others on the internet when they’ve not been trained to diagnose anything is a recipe for disaster.

    I’m not processing or retaining information very well right now (something that really is a result of my mental illness, or at the very least a result of my needing a nap), so I can’t make any firm judgements or critiques about what’s going down in this particular thread. However, it has been my experience that internet diagnosis by untrained individuals rarely ends well. So I ask that people tread carefully.

  118. 118
    Ben Zvan

    So to respond to bluharmony who’s comment beat mine into the system. You may file suit for use without license if your work is not registered with the copyright office, but you are not entitled to damages or lawyers’ fees.

  119. 119
    bluharmony

    Ben, while that’s true, I believe that Surly Amy was also the photographer. In any case, if there was no criticism of the art, then fair use wouldn’t apply on that ground, but could apply for purposes of research, documentaries, etc. Other relevant factors are whether the work had already been published, whether financial losses resulted, etc. But if the work was not registered, there could be no claim in the first place, though a notice could still be sent.

  120. 120
    bluharmony

    Ben: I think we’re largely in agreement — you can stop the use of the work, but nothing more.

  121. 121
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    oolon
    I’m wondering whether you read the very first thing I wrote about this: I’m actually getting mental health treatment myself. I obviously expect you to take me serious, so I don’t think that just because somebody has mental health problems* should imply that they should stfu.
    Believe it or not, and I will repeat this for the last time: I’m actually concerned for her. I can’t stand her ass, but that’s me, I care. As noticed before, it is totally possible that she’s just a massive douchecanoe hater and I’m a massive idiot for worrying.

    Ca you point to anything in my actual interaction with her that would justify your opinion that I’m trying to abelism-shame her or not take care serious?

    *I’m also using that term on purpose. Mental health is a broad field and I’m really not going to do some armchair diagnostics.

  122. 122
    Eristae

    PS No nap for me until I get to go swimming. Swimmiiiiiiiing foooor meeeee. O_O

  123. 123
    bluharmony

    Gilliel:

    “I can’t stand her ass, but I care.”

    Tell you what, if you actually cared like you claim, then you wouldn’t be posting the stuff you’re posting about me online. Clearly there’s no more evidence of mental illness on my part than on the part of anyone else actively involved in this drama, and certainly I didn’t start this round (or any other). But we all screw up, forget, get angry, and make mistakes, and I’m not beyond any of that. At the moment, however, I’m engaging in an interesting discussion about a concept (copyright) rather than a person, which is always a bonus.

  124. 124
    Eristae

    Oh, and PS @Giliell, not to be confused with The Borg

    I’m not trying to say that you are doing any of that, as my reading comprehension has somewhat fallen in the toilet, and my ability to work through nuances is shot. I am not in a state to be making many judgements about what people are saying.

  125. 125
    Ben Zvan

    Publishing on the internet counts as publishing, so date is established that way. Courts will also accept original RAW files and often the creation date of the image from the metadata if it can be established that it has not been altered.

    The work does not have to be registered for the creator to be entitled to compensation for use without license even for a minute. Registration only adds the ability of the creator to recoup the costs of litigation and damages from the party who used the work without license.

  126. 126
    bluharmony

    Erista, you’ve always come across as reasonable and fair to me.

  127. 127
    oolon

    @Giliel, apologies for insults if you are totally genuine. I don’t think this is the time or the place to discuss it even if you actually thought that. This article is a criticism of her behaviour and even mentioning mental illness is, in my opinion, demeaning to her and to people with mental illness. As Erista says diagnosing over the internet is fraught at best. I was fairly forthright due to the context here – if this was a post filled with Maria’s fiends and it was all about what a great feminist she was I’d have a different response… OK?

  128. 128
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Erista
    As said above: I’m not trying to diagnose her. I wouldn’t do that. I’m not even saying she has mental health problems, just that I’m worried about her and her mental health.

  129. 129
    Stephanie Zvan

    Anyone who wants to argue about copyright, go here: http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamonds/2012/08/17/it-isnt-enough-to-feel-righteous/

    Anyone who wants to talk about the mental health of anyone but themselves, knock it off.

    This thread is about Maria’s lies. Like this:

    Except Laden demanded that I not contact him, so that made a direct request to remove anything difficult.

    Lie. Greg told you not to contact him in the body of the very first post. You kept it up, well after the address was posted, without asking him to take down the address.

    I did discuss the fact that my address was up on his blog constantly (hence the reaction from Zvan) and that it came up as the first result on Google, but having read Greg’s post in this thread, I’ll agree to the possibility that he didn’t know it was there if he doesn’t read the comments on his blog posts.

    Lie. This lie is so well documented in the pdfs attached to this post that I’m aghast that you even tried to get away with it. There is a wealth of material showing you talking to Greg and others and not asking him to remove that address. As far as I can tell, you didn’t mention the address until the post was already removed.

    This kind of shit is why this post exists.

  130. 130
    oolon

    Hehe freudian slip — Marias ‘friends’ not ‘fiends’!!

  131. 131
    bluharmony

    @Ben — I’m not an expert in copyright law (in fact, I know very little about it), but I’m going by various websites (not necessarily legitimate sources) that state the following:

    “While registering for copyright is not required, the legal registration with the Office of Copyright will benefit the copyright owner should an issue of infringement occur. Registering copyright is beneficial because you cannot sue for copyright infringement without registration.”

    If you like, I can check the statute for confirmation, as that’s generally the best place to start.

  132. 132
    doubtthat

    What the hell did I just read? Was that supposed to be an intervention? Doesn’t look like it worked.

    I think old Sisyphus may have lucked out. If the internet was around back then, he may have ended up with “convince a compulsive internet liar that they are wrong” as one of his tasks. At least you get some exercise with that boulder.

  133. 133
    Eristae

    @Giliell, not to be confused with The Borg

    You should worry about my mental health. You should say, “Eris’s mental health is in the toilet, therefore I will force the YMCA to open their pool up early so she can go SWIIIIMIIIING”

    :D

  134. 134
    Greg Laden

    By the way, who published the address? If it was in the comment section, it must have been put up by a particular commenter. Who was that?

  135. 135
    bluharmony

    @ Stephanie, yes, I talked about the fact that my address was posted and still do — I didn’t say I talked about it in the same thread. Geez. As for the other statement, it’s clearly not a lie, so, whatever. He did make that demand, and I was afraid of him. I still am. er

    What is your point? It’s like you’re out to pervert everything I’ve ever said and/or never said to establish that I’m a liar, and you’re actually wasting your whole day doing it, when even Greg doesn’t care.

  136. 136
    oolon

    @Stephanie, yeah this mental illness thing is a massive derail. Lies are the real issue… But who really cares that someone lies on the internet, is this a variation on SIWOTI?

    I reckon it is clear there is no real damage to Greg – he did not seem particularly concerned in his posts as they mainly concentrated on her being ‘annoying’ or other things we have covered.

    Other far more influential people like Thunderf00t have repeated far worse lies as I linked to above. Many more in the slimepit engage in much more name calling, irrationality and general lie dissemination.

    But it is really important that Maria is called out on her lies!

  137. 137
    bluharmony

    I think Stephanie has the copy. She can tell us.

  138. 138
    Greg Laden

    oolan, you make me laugh. I am doing something wrong by suggesting that we may err on the side of caution and assume that Maria is interminably annoying in a way she can’t really help, but you’re just fine calling her totally irrational.

    Why don’t you just tell me exactly what I am supposed to think (in your view) and how I am to express that (in your view) and I’ll see if it fits.

    As an aside if you really think Maria is mentally ill, possibly schizophrenic

    Did I say that? No. I characterized her initial interaction with me as stereotyped comedy TV schizo… as in the “dual personality” trope, which is not a real thing. Please, stop pretending you are paying attention if you really are not.

  139. 139
    Eristae

    Anyway, it is time for me to get ready for the swimmings! Bye bye, all~!

  140. 140
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    bluharmony

    and certainly I didn’t start this round (or any other).

    Wait, you didn’t make those claims about the posted addy and didn’t thank somebody who claimed it was Greg?

    Oolon

    @Giliel, apologies for insults if you are totally genuine.

    How nice of you.

    I don’t think this is the time or the place to discuss it even if you actually thought that.

    I have no intentions of discussing her actual mental state. Again, I am not going to play armchair diagnostics. I’m engaging her lies, half-truths and spins like I would with John Greg.
    But when I think I see somebody who needs help I’m going to say it. I’ve been silent before and that wasn’t a good thing to do.

  141. 141
    Stephanie Zvan

    Have a lovely swim, Erista. I’m jealous, though not enough to go swimming in the rain.

  142. 142
    Greg Laden

    No, I don’t want to do that. My concerns about her mental health stems from actual worries about bluharmony.

    Mine as well, but that does not matter to the people with the blinders and the tweezers used to pick out this or that word or term and go with it.

    Oolon: She posted differing opinions on different blogs. A more obvious interpretation is that she is a devious git trying to suck up to him to get some goss for her mates that hate him.

    That was my original interpretation, in fact. It still may be the case. But, again, that is not the point. The point is, you can’t know this very easily.

    OOlon If you or Greg think
    She was almost playing out a parody of a TV comedic Schizophrenic
    Then you can be pretty fucking sure she does not have schizophrenia given the accuracy of TV depictions of mental illness

    And thus, you have stumbled on something here! Now, you must wrench this thought out of your brain and put it back into my words where you found it. And do, really, start reading what you are talking about. Jeesh.

  143. 143
    bluharmony

    Hey, that’s a derail, this is supposed to be about my lies! ;-)

  144. 144
    oolon

    @Greg, forget the mental illness thing you obviously don’t get it. What I actually said is

    They appear to be completely unhinged in their hatred of Greg. And I don’t mean mentally ill…

    I won’t expect you to understand that appearing to be completely unhinged and being mentally ill are two different things. (BTW what’s with the oolan misspelling am I missing some great put down? PZ and TF have a similar sense of humour and use ooloon… Do you just not know what THHGTTG is!)

    I’m finding this thread rather surreal now especially since Greg and Maria are getting on so well… According to Stephanie she is some evil libeller out to lose him his job or something.

  145. 145
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Sorry, Stephanie, I didn’t refresh
    Feel free to delete

    Erista
    I shall write them a mail ;)

  146. 146
    Greg Laden

    Erika, 116, yes, thanks, that is helpful.

    But, here’s the problem: Even though we CAN NOT diagnose people over the internet (and should not) if one has a suspicion that a person has a mental illness, as compared to someone who does not, and if one’s suspicion is that it may be the reason for some particular on-Internet behavior, does one ignore that suspicion simply because one can not really diagnose over the internet, or does one take it into account?

    Obviously this would be very context dependent, unless the answer is (and it may well be) “no, never ever do that no matter what”. But, even given that it may be context dependent, what are the guiding principles here?

    The point I was making is that I know of no guiding principles.

  147. 147
    Stephanie Zvan

    According to Stephanie she is some evil libeller out to lose him his job or something.

    I said no such thing. I’ve said nothing about why she’s doing this. I’m just documenting that she does and that she did in this case.

  148. 148
    bluharmony

    If I can contribute, I think it’s better to accuse me of being a liar or whatever horrible things you can think of than to bring up mental illness. Not because it’s insulting to me, but because in this context, it would be insulting to the mentally ill. That’s Oolon’s point, I think.

  149. 149
    Greg Laden

    Oolon, can you please explain how and why mental illness is demeaning?

  150. 150
    oolon

    @Stephanie, why don’t you start some site to document the wrongs committed by bluharmony… You could call is bluwrongula or something?

  151. 151
    Stephanie Zvan

    oolon, you’ve been told why I posted this. One, single blog post. If all you can do is keep asking why or suggesting I should have done something else, your comments are pointless. Go away or get relevant.

  152. 152
    oolon

    @Greggy reading comprehension is not your strong point :-) Even in my kak-handed way of trying to point out invoking mental illness is wrong can you possibly twist what I said to mean this

    Oolon, can you please explain how and why mental illness is demeaning?

    @Bluharmony gets my point and she is an irrational obsessive FtBs hater, one up to Maria :-D

  153. 153
    bluharmony

    Oh, Stephanie, I can explain why — because I found the fact of having my personal address and all sorts of other garbage about me published really scary. And Greg was the owner and moderator of that blog, and I believe, if I recall correctly, he even responded to that entry. Because after that, everyone knew that I was, indeed, an attorney. If I didn’t follow proper procedures for getting it removed, then so be it.

    But it’s gone now, and I’m grateful. It’s gone from where it was located as well, so if you intend to publish it again, it is no longer public information.

  154. 154
    F [i'm not here, i'm gone]

    Jesus, oolon. Why? The why is the sentence with the first link in the first paragraph of Stephanie’s post. Consider it trivial or not, there’s your why. How is this difficult?

  155. 155
    Stephanie Zvan

    Maria, kindly be less of an idiot. The threads under discussion are linked in the post as pdfs. The information in those threads is in those pdfs. There’s nothing to threaten.

    And you keep lying. You weren’t too afraid of Greg to ask him to take down the first post. The second post is him documenting you doing that. You just asked him to do it because you didn’t like that someone mentioned your Facebook pictures, not because your home address was in it. Frankly, for all I know, it may have already been removed at that point–as I mention in the post.

  156. 156
    bluharmony

    BTW, I’d like to point out that not all my requests and responses that I submitted on Greg’s blog posts were actually published, as moderation was in place for much of the time period we’re discussing. I know several people complained that their comments on the LinkedIn screen cap post didn’t get published, for whatever reason. I know several of mine weren’t published. I’m not accusing Greg of doing this selectively, just saying that Stephanie is making an error if she thinks she knows everything I said and did everywhere, and can use lack of evidence as proof of whatever it is she’s trying to prove at this point.

  157. 157
    Stephanie Zvan

    Actually, Maria, Greg points out in the second thread that you seem to think you’re in moderation when you’re not. He didn’t put you in moderation until the end of that comment thread. Nice try, though. Almost credible this time.

  158. 158
    Greg Laden

    I know several people complained that their comments on the LinkedIn screen cap post didn’t get published, for whatever reason. I know several of mine weren’t published. I’m not accusing Greg of doing this selectively

    I selectively don’t allow comments by you, Maria, or any of the slimepitters, creationists, global warming denialists, et al. Well, occasionally I allow comments by creationists and AGW denialists because they are points of discussion.

  159. 159
    bluharmony

    Let me explain Stephanie: just like for Surly, it was a totality of the circumstances, being called a bitch by your friend Raging Bee, being called mentally ill (sexist), having home address published. If it makes you happy, I was so devastated that I did have to seek therapy because of it, because for someone with a history of abuse, that kind of internet harassment did not help. And clearly I wanted the posts removed. If I didn’t follow every step you think I should have followed, or if I don’t remember everything exactly at this point, so what? I haven’t read your attachments wherever they are. Did you publish my home address again?

  160. 160
    Stephanie Zvan

    And the LinkedIn post didn’t go up until May, after the other posts were reverted to draft.

  161. 161
    F [i'm not here, i'm gone]

    Erista:

    Trademark law says that Surly Amy has to post her address?

    Jesus Christ, this shit is complicated in a way I had never imagined.

    It is complicated stuff. It’s even more complicated in this instance when you realize that trademark has zero to do with copyright and the DMCA. They aren’t even on the same planet, metaphorically speaking.

  162. 162
    oolon

    @stephanie and ‘F’,

    oolon, you’ve been told why I posted this

    Damage to Greg: None there (Greg, disagree?)
    Someone took her lies seriously, and they were credible: I’d refer you back to no damage done but that is not the only point. People far more influential and credible in many eyes are spreading far worse lies. So why pick on one person?

    No answers to either of these points… I just don’t get it apparently but then maybe any attack on a member of the other side is always justified.

    your comments are pointless. Go away or get relevant.

    There appears to be nothing pointy in this article at all… So exit stage left to bed.

    @Maria, you may as well try and stick to the flounce about 30 comments ago. I cannot see anything useful coming of this discussion apart from a rip roaring addition to Phawrongula and FTBullies… Say fuck off to John Welch from me ;-) I’m sure he is glad I used him as an exemplar of Greg hating irrationality.

  163. 163
    Stephanie Zvan

    Maria, the post very clearly says your address had been removed. As I said, kindly don’t be an idiot.

    As for “So what?”, the so what here is that you’re going around lying about Greg. You’re saying he did things he didn’t, and you’re encouraging others who do the same. That’s kind of a big deal, in case your legal ethics training didn’t cover it.

  164. 164
    bluharmony

    The LinkedIn post went up after I’d been silent about these issues for ages, and as a total surprise to me. After that, I became interested in talking about this again, because other people were being bullied too.

    And I grant you, people are bullied on “your side” as well, but what you’re doing isn’t helping them, it’s hurting them.

  165. 165
    Stephanie Zvan

    And I grant you, people are bullied on “your side” as well, but what you’re doing isn’t helping them, it’s hurting them.

    That’s what you said the rape task group said about talking about sexual harassment. You were lying then, too.

  166. 166
    Paul

    If I didn’t follow every step you think I should have followed, or if I don’t remember everything exactly at this point, so what?

    So you shouldn’t lie and claim that you NEEDED to get Ed to take your address down, nor thank others for making that lie for you?

    How, after this entire thread, is that not obvious? You seem to recognize that this blog post was intended to point out you lying, or so some of your snipes indicate. I’m at a complete loss as to how you can say what I quoted, after reading the initial post and participating in the subsequent discussion.

    If you care at all about “making Stephanie happy”, perhaps start by apologizing for the lies you seem to have recognized by now? As that was the goal of the initial post, and not reveling over you needing to seek therapy, it almost seems impossible to assume anything but that you’re being disingenuous by this point.

  167. 167
    bluharmony

    No I haven’t. Most of the time, I didn’t even mention where this happened: You did that or others just assumed it was Greg, since his posts about me were frequent. I have specifically said that I didn’t want to discuss Laden many times. And I never said Greg wrote the post: You did that. If I didn’t correct Julian, it wasn’t intentional, I thought the substance of his post was correct: in a moderated forum where many of my posts didn’t make it through, my address was a permissible thing to post while making fun of me. And again, I haven’t reread the threads, so if my memory is hazy, oh well.

    The fact that you removed that little bit of info, BTW, will just make people go searching for my new address info, so thanks.

  168. 168
    Greg Laden

    Damage to Greg: None there (Greg, disagree?)

    I don’t know. Tell me your real name and give me a few more personal details, like the city you live in, that sort of thing, and I’ll get a few friends to work with me on keeping up a constant supply of tweets, comments, blog posts, etc., that say bad things about you for a year and we’ll see how that goes.

    The crap I get from Maria and the others in her ilk is minor compared to what Rebecca Watson or Amy get, but it is there, constant, and I’m not going to agree with you that it produces zero damage. I didn’t say it does, but I’m not going to simply say it doesn’t.

    First, we’ll try it on you for a year and you can tell me about it then. K? Or, if you prefer, we can chose a different victim. Let me know.

  169. 169
    bluharmony

    There were no lies, just assumptions, and a really stupid post about Ophelia. My address was disclosed. Where is the apology for that? No one cares about actually putting me in danger. It’s more important to the lot of you how clearly I remember the order in which everything happened. I think that shows where your priorities are.

  170. 170
    Greg Laden

    Also, I think Stephanie should write an interesting post about copyright and related issues to go with these comments!

  171. 171
    Stephanie Zvan

    And I never said Greg wrote the post: You did that. If I didn’t correct Julian, it wasn’t intentional

    Lie. Julian’s comment was entirely that Greg had published your information. You not only didn’t correct it. You thanked him for it.

    …in a moderated forum where many of my posts didn’t make it through, my address was a permissible thing to post while making fun of me.

    Lie. We’ve already covered why your address was posted. It was documenting that you were an attorney playing fast and loose with accusations of “defamation, libel, slander”.

    And again, I haven’t reread the threads, so if my memory is hazy, oh well.

    Fuck no. If you don’t remember what happened, you don’t go around spreading lies about it. Period.

    The fact that you removed that little bit of info, BTW, will just make people go searching for my new address info, so thanks.

    I didn’t remove it. I already said that Greg had already removed it. I don’t know when.

    You apparently don’t either, so tell me this: How do you know it didn’t happen within minutes of it being posted? I saw it because I was following the thread at that point.

  172. 172
    bluharmony

    Greg, seriously, I sent you a stupid Facebook message after you called me a “sick puppy,” then tried to make up while you were trying to get my work info, I’m not sure for what reason. You have not typically been the subject of my comments, the disclosure of my address was of concern to me, but that would have never happened had you not started a hate thread about me with my legal name in the header. Read through my blog, there’s not a word there about you, Zvan, PZ, or any of the others.

    Now Zvan is continuing the hate campaign by making my personal info easy to access and calling attention to it, all in the context of hate. I wonder how she’d like it if someone did that to Rebecca. Or Surly.

  173. 173
    oolon

    @Greg, yes I’m as bad as Maria at flouncing… But just checked before bed and now I get it. This is a revenge piece for a campaign of hate against you by *many* people. You are happy for one person to get the shit since she is part of that group. Simple to understand, even I get it.

  174. 174
    Stephanie Zvan

    Now Zvan is continuing the hate campaign by making my personal info easy to access and calling attention to it, all in the context of hate.

    Lie. I’m correcting your lie about Greg.

  175. 175
    bluharmony

    To answer your question: because I kept checking and it was still there.

  176. 176
    Stephanie Zvan

    oolon, you haven’t gotten a single thing yet. Nice to see you’re not about to start. Go stick your flounce.

  177. 177
    bluharmony

    Have fun.

  178. 178
    Stephanie Zvan

    To answer your question: because I kept checking and it was still there.

    Maria, I don’t believe you.

  179. 179
    bluharmony

    That’s completely your choice.

  180. 180
    F [i'm not here, i'm gone]

    I think someone is going to have to get used to hearing, “Objection: Asked and answered,” if they practice in a court of law.

  181. 181
    Greg Laden

    Oolon: ” This is a revenge piece for a campaign of hate against you by *many* people. You are happy for one person to get the shit since she is part of that group. Simple to understand, even I get it.”

    What are you talking about? What is a revenge piece? What am I happy about? Please explain.

  182. 182
    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    I for one don’t think Bluharmony is mentally ill.

    I think an unfortunate combination of malice and sheer incompetence just about covers it.

    Though I must say, the way she makes up her own version of reality whenever something like this happens is really something to behold. It’s like she honestly, deep down, thinks no one is gonna be smart enough to look up her statements and discover the lie -this time-.

  183. 183
    WMDKitty -- Survivor

    [Deleted at WMDKitty's request. --SZ]

  184. 184
    Aratina Cage

    Hrm. I didn’t know Greg Laden had been kicked off FTB (what the?!–reading up on it now), but I will vouch for bluharmony in that she did write to me personally (while we were discussing Elevatorgate stuff on Twitter through direct messaging) on November 13 of 2011 saying Greg had made it so people could easily find her private address and also that he had pointed to it and that he had a hand in disclosing it (taken from 3 separate mentions of it), and then later that month she wrote to me that she was scared to sleep at her house at night due to the divulgence of that information in the context it was presented in. So, I have evidence she started saying that very early on (within a month of the K.M.A. post) though perhaps not publicly and not to Greg.

    Greg removed the information when he became aware that this was Maltseva’s home address as well as her business address. To be honest, I don’t know when that was.

    It had to be on or before the 30th of October 2011 (seven days after it was posted) because I have that entire K.M.A. page saved from that day at about 3 p.m. Eastern time USA after Greg stopped allowing comments on it and the only personally identifying information it has in it for blu is the title and the Facebook link. Same goes for the next post of Greg’s about her titled “I get email” (that is, no business or residential address is visible in the post or in the four comments I was able to grab).

  185. 185
    WMDKitty -- Survivor

    Gaack. Delete the above (183) — I posted before reading the whole thread.

    My bad.

  186. 186
    bluharmony

    Thanks Aratina. In retrospect, I think the primary fault lies with the now unidentified commenter, and not with Greg in regard to this issue. So to the extent Greg has been unfairly implicated in the disclosure of my address, I sincerely apologize.

    Also rereading my comments from that page, gawd do I sound silly. That was immediately after I discovered my Wikia page with claims that I bash the mentally ill, and so on (now also gone, and I’m fine with being on the general list of slimepitters — that’s true).

    But now at least I know why I didn’t ask for the address to be removed: Greg closed the thread, so I couldn’t. And told me not to email him, so I didn’t, until later, along with Ed. I also don’t recall it being taken down that quickly, but obviously, I believe you, Aratina.

  187. 187
    Aratina Cage

    Yeah, that’s probably what happened, blu. It has probably gnawed at you ever since and it could have been stuck in a search engine cache for a time afterward, but it does look like Laden fixed that part of it relatively quickly and that it has disappeared completed from the Web by now.

  188. 188
    Stephanie Zvan

    In retrospect, I think the primary fault lies with the now unidentified commenter, and not with Greg in regard to this issue. So to the extent Greg has been unfairly implicated in the disclosure of my address, I sincerely apologize.

    How about you start correcting this as publicly as you’ve been spreading it? There’s at least one post linked above where you can ask for the information to be corrected or removed.

    But now at least I know why I didn’t ask for the address to be removed: Greg closed the thread, so I couldn’t. And told me not to email him, so I didn’t, until later, along with Ed.

    Lies. You were talking to Greg on Facebook.

    Why do you keep doing this?

  189. 189
    bluharmony

    Also, I’d like to point out that when I complained about being calling a bitch and having my looks/photos criticized, I wasn’t saying that you couldn’t, but merely saying that some of you are no different from the “slimepitters” in that regard. And you can refer to the document Zvan provided to confirm that I was indeed called a bitch and my photos were discussed. I also made up with Stacey Kennedy, and she apologized to me about the comments on my photos. Generally, my childish response to the Kiss My Ass blog post came immediately after I discovered untrue and extremely hurtful allegations in the Pharyngula Wikia, and I was literally reeling from shock. Before that discovery, I had not discussed Elevatorgate publicly for months.

  190. 190
    bluharmony

    I blocked Greg on Facebook at some point after this incident, and he remains blocked. I feel it is best that we not communicate without witnesses, and that’s why I got Ed involved when I emailed him, which lead to immediate help, for whatever reason, even if it was because I’m extremely annoying. At this point, it’s time for you to examine your double standards for address disclosure and how women should feel about it, Stephanie. And also, since you call everything a lie, I’m assuming that you don’t know what that word means.

  191. 191
    bluharmony

    Since I didn’t write the post you’re referring to, Stephanie, I’m not going to ask to have it removed. Greg can do so, however, and I will support any such requests with what’s been established in this discussion.

  192. 192
    Stephanie Zvan

    At this point, it’s time for you to examine your double standards for address disclosure and how women should feel about it, Stephanie.

    What double standard, Maria. What have I said about how you should feel about anything. What I’ve said is that you’ve been lying about Greg, which you have.

    And also, since you call everything a lie, I’m assuming that you don’t know what that word means.

    Yet another lie. I don’t call everything a lie. I have documented several of the lies you’ve told here as well as those you’ve told and supported elsewhere.

    Since I didn’t write the post you’re referring to, Stephanie, I’m not going to ask to have it removed. Greg can do so, however, and I will support any such requests with what’s been established in this discussion.

    So, are you going to ask your buddy Justicar to tell everyone that Greg didn’t really do that to you?

  193. 193
    bluharmony

    My home address was disclosed and nobody cares. Surly’s was, and it was a tragedy, with anyone who didn’t care being vilified as a bully. That’s more than enough to prove my point. In fact you’ve been extremely helpful in documenting the disclosure, since you saw it yourself. Otherwise, I will support Greg in any way if he wants to clarify that the disclosure appeared in the comments rather than in the body of his “Maria Maltseva Can Kiss My Ass” post, and I have already done so on Twitter. I will also reaffirm, as I have already done on Twitter, that he posted the LinkedIn screencap in a different post, and not this one.

    Also, by your refusal to comment on things like calling me a bitch, mentally ill, and laughing about my photos, I am assuming that you condone these practices when they are done to people you dislike, thus this isn’t about feminism at all.

  194. 194
    Greg Laden

    Hrm. I didn’t know Greg Laden had been kicked off FTB

    One of these days I will have to post my email to Ed and PZ in which I resign from FTB, followed by the email they sent me asking me to take a few days to reconsider, followed by the second email from them saying that they accepted my resignation. At no point is the phrase “kicked off” used.

    I do understand that what really happened is of little interest to most people.

    Going back to an earlier point, Maria has mentioned that she’s never threatened legal action against me. I’m tempted to re-post the October 23rd post but rather than doing that I’ll just quote this comment here:

    I never sent you a single email Greg. That is a foul, despicable (and actionable) lie, and I’m seeing my attorney about it tomorrow. Prove it (meaning, prove it was me) or shut up. Actually, since you obviously can’t prove it, just do us all a favor and quit lying, at least until you have something to say about the topic you’re supposed to be writing about — like anything science-related. Not that I trust your knowledge in that area, either. BTW, how do I post the screen cap where Ophelia bashes Watson? I don’t know your email address, so I’ll just post it to your FB page, OK?

    The “emails” were emails sent via the facebook messaging system. I suppose some people call them emails some people not. Couldn’t care less. Anyway, you can see that part where Maria says “…actionable…seeing my attorney about it tomorrow.”?

  195. 195
    Stephanie Zvan

    My home address was disclosed and nobody cares.

    Nobody knew, Maria. Right now, however, I have a hard time caring about anything you say because I don’t trust any of it I can’t verify on my own.

    Also, by your refusal to comment on things like calling me a bitch, mentally ill, and laughing about my photos, I am assuming that you condone these practices when they are done to people you dislike, thus this isn’t about feminism at all.

    Hey, look, another lie. I told people to stop talking about your mental health and everyone else’s here. As for the rest, I’ve shut down every tangent on this thread, everything that doesn’t have to do with your lies. That doesn’t mean you can guess my opinions on any of it. Nice attempt to deflect yet one more time, though.

  196. 196
    bluharmony

    Greg, one thing I remember telling you for sure is that I’m not seeking legal action. But I had not sent you any emails at that point, and only a few short messages via Facebook, a couple attempting to make peace, and one reacting to your “sick puppy” comment. I don’t consider those emails, but I doubt that it matters. You have also said many other things about me that aren’t true, but I am not into playing the blame game anymore.

    As for re-posting that blog entry, Zvan did it for you, in this very thread. So how do you feel about people calling women bitches on your blog?

  197. 197
    Stephanie Zvan

    Maria, if you want to know about how Greg characterized the comments on the first post, read the content of the second. You two discussed it on Facebook. It’s not going to be rehashed here.

  198. 198
    bluharmony

    People knew because I told them, and Aratina certainly cared. If no one knew, and if I hadn’t told, this page obviously wouldn’t exist.

    You admit that you knew and did absolutely nothing. So again, that says it all.

  199. 199
    Stephanie Zvan

    People knew because I told them, and Aratina certainly cared. If no one knew, and if I hadn’t told, this page obviously wouldn’t exist.

    So…people did care, then, when they found out, and saying they didn’t was another lie?

    You admit that you knew and did absolutely nothing.

    Lie. I found out it was your personal address well after the entire post was reverted to draft. There was nothing for me to do.

  200. 200
    bluharmony

    You can’t tell a personal address from a business address? Wow. Also, you’re saying disclosing my business address would have been OK? Because that’s all that happened to Surly. Yet people are still going on about what a horrifying thing that was. I can send you some links.

  201. 201
    bluharmony

    As to Aratina, he truly cares about people, and I don’t consider him to be a bully or a hypocrite in any sense. So I most certainly wasn’t referring to him. I was referring to the group of vocal personalities that make these issues a constant topic of trite and irrelevant discussion in the atheist community, while doing the same things they accuse others of. Like lying, for instance.

  202. 202
    Stephanie Zvan

    You can’t tell a personal address from a business address?

    By looking at it? No. How do you do that?

    Also, you’re saying disclosing my business address would have been OK?

    I’ve already explained in the comments why documenting your business was relevant to your behavior in that thread. Given how badly that reflects on you professionally, I’m rather surprised you keep bringing it up. I’ve also given my opinion of using your address as documentation of your business.

  203. 203
    Stephanie Zvan

    I was referring to the group of vocal personalities that make these issues a constant topic of trite and irrelevant discussion in the atheist community, while doing the same things they accuse others of. Like lying, for instance.

    You were, in fact, referring to me. I suggest you point out where I’m lying or take that back before you make another comment here.

  204. 204
    bluharmony

    “Nobody knew, Maria.” Lie.

  205. 205
    bluharmony

    And no, I was not referring to you specifically. So lie or mistake.

  206. 206
    bluharmony

    “I told people to stop talking about your mental health and everyone else’s here.” Unless I missed it, you told people to stop talking about copyright infringement. So either a lie or my mistake.

  207. 207
    Stephanie Zvan

    “Nobody knew, Maria.” Lie.

    Not a lie. “Nobody” is the same “nobody” you referred to here:

    My home address was disclosed and nobody cares.

    Or were you lying?

  208. 208
    Greg Laden

    I still don’t know who posted the alleged address. Anybody else know?

  209. 209
    Stephanie Zvan

    And no, I was not referring to you specifically. So lie or mistake.

    Really? You were referring to:

    …the group of vocal personalities that make these issues a constant topic…

    Are you saying I’m not part of the group you were referring to? Or are you saying we don’t actually lie?

    Also, why are you still trying to document me lying if you’re not saying I lie? That makes no sense whatsoever.

    Unless I missed it, you told people to stop talking about copyright infringement. So either a lie or my mistake.

    See comment #129.

  210. 210
    Stephanie Zvan

    Greg, I remember it as being a commenter, and I remember it as documenting the fact that she’s an attorney. It could have been pelamun, backing up what had already been said. It could have been someone else backing that up. The two things I’m certain of are that it wasn’t you and it wasn’t bluharmony. My memory is good, but not that good. It’s been 10 months.

  211. 211
    bluharmony

    For legal reasons, I try not to make direct accusations of lying. I’m just saying that “Nobody knew” was a lie because you knew. You also knew I was called a bitch in the same thread, and you knew about other sexist comments and references to mental illness. So that one is obvious. You can try to make distinctions between home and office addresses all you like, but you knew that my address was disclosed, and if you cared, you could have found out which it was easily.

    Just because you’re in a group of people that lies doesn’t make you one of the liars. Guilt by association is a logical fallacy. Also, even if you had told a lie, that wouldn’t make you a liar, because at one point or another, everyone does it. A pattern of lies, however, is a different story.

    I think I know who did it by looking at the page, Greg. But at this point, I don’t actually want to name names.

    Point taken on comment 129.

  212. 212
    Stephanie Zvan

    So, just as a reminder, Maria, the statement we’re talking about is your:

    My home address was disclosed and nobody cares.

    First you accuse me of lying about this because I knew…sometime well after it wasn’t there. Then you say:

    You can try to make distinctions between home and office addresses all you like, but you knew that my address was disclosed, and if you cared, you could have found out which it was easily.

    So I didn’t know, but I should have. But I knew. And I didn’t care. But I should have cared before I knew. Oy.

    Maria, you’re in moderation so you don’t try to run away with the thread as I sleep. If you manage to post anything that isn’t a derail and contains no lies, I’ll let it out in the morning.

  213. 213
    Aratina Cage

    @Greg, sorry, I haven’t quite had enough time yet to carefully read the post of your parting at Ed’s or the one triggering it at Justin’s. So you’re saying it is more like you weren’t kicked off, just told to cool it and you chose to resign?

  214. 214
    strange gods before me ॐ

    bluharmony,

    Someone brought it to my attention that defamatory content was posted about me in the Pharyngula Wikia. So I had it removed.

    This is not true.

    You asked me to take the wiki page down. So we had a discussion at Pharyngula about it. And that discussion ended with our decision to delete it, for our own reasons.

    (Basically, because you said you didn’t want to post at Pharyngula anymore, it seemed unnecessary for us to keep a wiki page documenting your statements.)

    You didn’t have it removed.

    If you’d like, I can undelete the page to demonstrate that you didn’t have it removed. Otherwise, it would be sensible for you to stop making this claim.

  215. 215
    strange gods before me ॐ

    BTW, everyone on Pharyngula seemed to think that the defamatory page was inappropriate

    Actually, what people thought was inappropriate was the personal information that you personally added to the wiki page.

    You added your occupation, your city, the school you graduated from, the year you graduated, what you studied there, sufficient information to identify your employer, what sort of work you have on your résumé, and what you were currently specializing in.

    We decided that even though you were the one who edited the wiki to add all that information about yourself, we still didn’t like having it there. And so we edited those bits out of the page while we were discussing whether to delete the rest of the page entirely.

    Again, I can undelete the page to demonstrate all this, if you’d like.

  216. 216
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    bluharmony

    Thanks Aratina. In retrospect, I think the primary fault lies with the now unidentified commenter, and not with Greg in regard to this issue. So to the extent Greg has been unfairly implicated in the disclosure of my address, I sincerely apologize.

    It took you 183 posts to conceed one of the basic facts that was stated in the OP?

    My home address was disclosed and nobody cares.

    See, there you go lying again:
    1) Nobody knew it was your home address (apart from people you apparently told and who then cared)
    2) You’re right in saying that noboby at that time cared that your apparent business address was disclosed. That is a valid criticism you can make about Greg and everybody else who participated
    3) Right now in this thread about everybody has univocally condemed that any address was posted and said that it should have been removes ASAP even if it only had been your business address.
    So, to say that nobody cares (present tense) is a fucking lie.

    You can’t tell a personal address from a business address?

    In case of my BFF (attorney nevertheless) that would involve parallel universes since one is the other.

    You can try to make distinctions between home and office addresses all you like, but you knew that my address was disclosed, and if you cared, you could have found out which it was easily.

    Yes, probably and that would have been creepy, don’t you think so? I would say that you had actual more reasons to complain (yes, I think you have reasons to complain that it wasn’t removed ASAP regardless of whether it was business or private) if people had then investigated if that wasn’t even your home address. Why would anybody do that except in case they would really, really want to find out where you live for creepy reasons?

  217. 217
    Midnight Rambler

    FFS, I can’t believe there are over 200 comments on this idiocy. Get a life people, especially Maria and Stephanie.

  218. 218
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    Thanks for taking the time to comment then, MR. What a fun-packed life you must have.

    Again, I can undelete the page to demonstrate all this, if you’d like.

    Since this woman can’t stop lying even when clearly caught repeatedly lying, perhaps you should just do it. One more hit against her credibility at this point doesn’t matter, since she has absolutely none.

  219. 219
    Greg Laden

    So you’re saying it is more like you weren’t kicked off, just told to cool it and you chose to resign?

    No, that is also not an accurate characterization. I was not told to cool it, and my decision to resign was not specifically related to Justin, although he had become a great annoyance by that point in time. (At the moment, he is in the top three or four of people I know that I most wish I had never even heard of.) My wanting to resign had nothing to do with conflicts or anything interesting.

  220. 220
    Greg Laden

    Strange Gods 214 If you’d like, I can undelete the page to demonstrate that you didn’t have it removed. Otherwise, it would be sensible for you to stop making this claim.

    Indeed. This is exactly the situation that Maria has brought on, with me, on several occasions. She is out of line and obnoxious, and someone responds publicly. Then she becomes a victim and actually ends up being more annoying as a victim than she was as a bully. So you take the stupid thing down. Then she makes up shit about what happened originally so you put the thing back up again. Then she’s the victim again.

    I do have these two posts on The X Blog that are in hiding. I may well unhide them and add to them the record I made on facebook of her “emails/messages” back when. Just because I would hate to break what appears to be a Wondrous Perpetual Motion Machine!

  221. 221
    Greg Laden

    You added your occupation, your city, the school you graduated from, the year you graduated, what you studied there, sufficient information to identify your employer, what sort of work you have on your résumé, and what you were currently specializing in.

    We decided that even though you were the one who edited the wiki to add all that information about yourself, we still didn’t like having it there

    Well, there goes my coffee all over my keyboard. Damn.

    By the way, Maria, you need to consider this: You are complaining that bad things happened to Amy and everybody is sad and wants to support Amy. But, bad things happened to you and nobody cares.

    That is probably partly true. Actually, people do care about you but you don’t let them be caring because you act exactly like the dog I just met this morning, who met a friendly greeting with a growl followed by a crotch lick. Well, the crotch lick probably has nothing to do with the present situation… Anyway, I know Amy a lot better than I know you (I’ve actually met her, dine with her, drunk with her, and I’ve even had coffee with her) and my interactions with her have been mutually supportive, positive, friendly, coalitional, and so on. Amy is my friend. My interactions with you, which have pretty much been controlled by how you have behaved, have been agonistic, negative, unfriendly, annoying, and off-putting.

    So, I can’t speak for others, but you and I could have been online-’friends’ but you did not seek that, nurture that, move in that direction, support that, and apparently, did not want that. So you don’t get that. Amy does. That’s just me. Perhaps you’ve had that sort of interaction with some others. I assume,though, not everyone.

  222. 222
    oolon

    @Greg, I’m stuck in moderation as obviously linking to pages in FtBs is clearly spammer behaviour :-)

    …their behavior towards other members of the community has made it impossible to keep them as part of our network. This is not a matter of a disagreement or difference of opinion, but of behavior that we cannot condone or support.

    That is Eds statement, you say you decided to leave, so who to believe?

    Bit like the Maria situation if I come at this from the position that everything you say is a lie then you are clearly lying as the evidence apart from your own statements contradicts you. However it is perfectly possible you really believe this and even have some evidence you have decided to keep to yourself. Strange Ed did not frame it that way…

    Maria on the other hand accepts she probably should blame the original commenter who put her address on your blog. Also it could be argued you should have removed regardless – like PZ did with Pappas address. Again not clear that anyone is lying unless you come in with the already formed opinion that Maria = slimepit = liar.

    Anyway this post is keeping Justin Vacula in useful employment updating the Phawrongula wiki and supplying the slimepit with gossip for a while so I suppose there is some use in it. (phawrongula Witch_of_the_Week)

  223. 223
    Stephanie Zvan

    oolon, Greg is telling the truth. I was there. I saw it.

    If you want to know why Ed decided to make a minimalist statement–that doesn’t contradict what Greg has said here about the resignation, note requesting he stay, and acceptance of his resignation–ask Ed. It involves backchannel discussions, so I can’t really talk about it. Nonetheless, Greg is telling the truth.

    Also, Greg did remove the address quite quickly. Aratina has attested to that, thus putting the lie to bluharmony’s “I kept checking” or however she phrased it. Keep up.

  224. 224
    Stephanie Zvan

    For the record, bluharmony left four or five messages overnight. None of them met the criteria I set. I may or may not let them out later when I have time to respond to the lies included in them.

  225. 225
    oolon

    @Stephanie, it is not for me to salvage Gregs reputation by getting Ed to clarify. Greg seems miffed that everyone thinks he was kicked off so he should get that clarification. Especially as I’ve seen bloggers even confusing Thunderf00ts awful writing with Greg as well – they were *both* kicked off for being generally horrible in person and writing style. That is surely pretty damaging to his career.

    Personally I believe you, I doubt you would lie for him – unfortunately I am also now disappointed in Ed as that letter to Justin deserved a kicking off (IMO).

    I said myself that Maria came across to me as disingenuous when arguing with me on TFs blog – she modified her position and became a lot more reasonable when challenged. Her comments grandstanding to the MRAs were totally different to her comments to me. So I am no fan of hers – despite my supporting comments here.

    But for a barefaced liar Maria comes across here as very reasonable and willing to admit to mistakes. Of course this is all part of her persona and wicked plan to subvert FtBs and ruin Greg. How exactly she is going to achieve this given the only damage from her lies that Greg could come up with was just irrelevant stuff about how *all* the slimepitters have been nasty to him…. But then I don’t get it as you say.

  226. 226
    Stephanie Zvan

    But for a barefaced liar Maria comes across here as very reasonable and willing to admit to mistakes.

    Uh, huh. That’s why she keep piling lies on top of lies. You might want to check those biases you say you don’t have.

    it is not for me to salvage Gregs reputation by getting Ed to clarify

    Just to smear by insinuation. Charming. Go away.

  227. 227
    Raging Bee

    The hotel staff could be lying and there are no coffee makers in hotels in downtown Europe.

    Wow, I didn’t know there was a vast conspiracy to lie about the availability of coffee makers in hotel rooms all over “downtown Europe” (whatever the hell that means)!

    The fact that she’s still obsessing over coffee makers in hotel rooms pretty clearly proves how small-minded bluharmony really is. I agree she really does need help, and the best thing she could do for herself is to quit posting embarrassing nonsense and spend more energy addressing her own problems.

    PS: on the subject of “mentally ill people STFU,” I do believe that sometimes, STFU is a necessary part of the cure: giving one’s mental illness an audience tends to strengthen it, and cutting it off from its audience tends to weaken it and make therapy more effective.

  228. 228
    oolon

    @stephanie, Sorry unless you mean “Strange Ed did not frame it that way…” I insinuated nothing that I could see. I said that before you clarified and said Greg was telling the truth – so in hindsight I was wrong to insinuate Eds poorly worded statement was damning of Greg.

    I was pretty clear and forthright that his conduct that I could see was shitty. No insinuation needed there.

    Still nothing on why this is at all damaging to Greg given that was your justification for singling out a nobody commenter for particular attention on their lies upon lies.

    So I’ll take your advice and give up and head off as you don’t seem to want to address that.

  229. 229
    Stephanie Zvan

    Yeah, because I need to write a blog post or something explaining why the lie, “Greg Laden posted my home address on his blog” would be damaging to Greg. You’ve got to be kidding me.

  230. 230
    Raging Bee

    Especially as I’ve seen bloggers even confusing Thunderf00ts awful writing with Greg as well…

    oolon, what blogs are you reading? I’ve never seen such confusion on any FTBlog, and no one that I know of has attempted to conflate Greg with Tfoot. Your alleged experience is totally diferent from mine, and your failure to specify which bloggers you’re talking about really damages your credibility.

  231. 231
    Raging Bee

    She is out of line and obnoxious, and someone responds publicly. Then she becomes a victim and actually ends up being more annoying as a victim than she was as a bully. So you take the stupid thing down. Then she makes up shit about what happened originally so you put the thing back up again. Then she’s the victim again.

    Manipualtive behavior is manipulative. What a surprise. “Details at eleven?” No thanks — this woman flushed her credibility down the toilet earlier last year, and I, for one, don’t need any further details.

  232. 232
    Paul

    But for a barefaced liar Maria comes across here as very reasonable and willing to admit to mistakes.

    What thread were you reading? Any admission came only after having mistakes, lies, and omissions pointed out several times.

  233. 233
    Greg Laden

    That is Eds statement, you say you decided to leave, so who to believe?

    What I said is accurate. I do not control what Ed says, what Ed gets wrong, or what Ed thinks. I can tell you that during almost the entire thunderfood/etc maneno Ed was only barely paying attention because he was on the road and that showed (to me, anyway) in his handling of these matters.

    Now, you and I have a problem. You just called me a liar. The next thing you say that I pay attention to is your apology to me for doing so. I don’t need an apology, but if you have any interest in further discussion with me that has to happen.

  234. 234
    Tabby Lavalamp

    …nobody likes you…

    I have to say, bluharmony impresses the hell out of me. How many 14-year-old attorneys are there?

  235. 235
    oolon

    (Sorry Stephanie Greg seems to have a bee in his bonnet, so deflounced)

    @Greg, Err try reading my comment again.. I said ‘if’ I approached you with the presupposition that you are an inveterate liar then I’d come to the conclusion you are lying in that case due to the lack of evidence beyond your assertions. The point was that many here seem to assume Maria is a liar therefore she must be lying in this case – no quarter given or benefit of the doubt – might be a flaw of mine but I always try and give that benefit unless there is rock solid evidence. Stephanie then jumped to your defence an backed up what had just been assertions from you prior to that – I said I believed her. No calling you a liar there, interesting how easy it is to jump to those sort of assumptions eh? :-)

    Now, you and I have a problem. You just called me a liar. The next thing you say that I pay attention to is your apology to me for doing so. I don’t need an apology, but if you have any interest in further discussion with me that has to happen.

    Hehe I can really see why you are catnip to the slimepitters – as someone who likes to take the piss it really is painful to miss this opportunity! But I do agree with most of what you say and I think Stephanie wants to ban me and I like her too so I’ll pass thanks :-D

  236. 236
    Stephanie Zvan

    The point was that many here seem to assume Maria is a liar therefore she must be lying in this case – no quarter given or benefit of the doubt –

    You really haven’t been reading any of this for comprehension, have you? There were no assumptions. Maria said things. I showed that they weren’t true. She said more things to try to argue that what she’d said really was true. I showed that those weren’t true either. Other people added information showing that other things she said weren’t true. At the end of an awful lot of that, I told her once that I simply didn’t believe her anymore about something she claimed that couldn’t be proved one way or another.

    Pointing something out is not the same thing as assuming it’s the case.

  237. 237
    Ace of Sevens

    @107: Json, are you saying Thunderf00t has been writing for A Voice for Men? I found several posts about him, but none by him or any that seemed to be reposts of his FTB material.

  238. 238
    Simon

    Ace of Sevens #237: It’s Justin Vacula that he’s referring to not Thunderf00t.

  239. 239
    Xanthë, Amy of my threads

    Stephanie, this thread disappoints me. Anyone who followed the various blog threads during E-gate (PZ’s; Ophelia’s; Greg’s; and Abbie’s) last year would have noticed Maria’s inconsistencies, and thus it was that she was caught out in egregious lies by attempting to play ‘both sides of the street’. After tangling with Greg on The X Blog last year I would have hoped Maria might have learnt something from the experience, but her lies on Jean Kazez’s blog demonstrate a lack of impulse control, and they deserve to be pointed out.

    I’m not entirely sure this thread is the right way of going about that, especially as in the past Maria has asked people like Greg to take down blog posts that named her, as they became prevalent in Google searches on her name; I foresee a similar request looming in the future in respect of this thread. Followed in due course, possibly, by complaints that the blog author had made various untrue assertions, and refused to take down the thread when she was asked to…

    So far be it from me to tell you to run your blog, but I’m somewhat astonished at the handling of this thread; I’m not sure there was a better way of addressing the issue, and I can definitely think of worse methods, but it looks to me like a free gift to the writers of the Phawrongula ‘Secular Shunning’ page (not that that alone should have given you pause).

    On that note about shunning, over the last year the slime-pitters have demonstrated enough ill will and vile behaviour to the people within the atheist community that I both respect and am friends with (that’s aside from having been personally targeted by the same ’pitters, for daring to comment on FTB and being a pro-LGBT feminist) that they deserve to be shunned by anyone with a shred of self-respect. Yes, on a variety of atheist and scientific subjects they have plenty of intelligence and knowledge to offer; but on anything that would distinguish Atheism+, the ’pitters have displayed a toxic inhumanity that is contrary to engendering any feeling of collegiality or collaboration.

    Where Maria fits into that… is her choice. But if she continues associating with the ’pitters, she should be aware of the unfriendly reception she’ll get with people who think Atheism+ is where the ‘atheist community’ should be moving towards.

  240. 240
    oolon

    @Xanthe, Your bit about playing both sides struck as it fitted with what little experience I have of arguing with Maria. I’m obviously missing a lot of the history here so given that I’ll give up on my Maria might not be lying line. Just saying that to an outsider without all the history it can certainly seem as if claiming malicious lies is hyperbolic. However I totally agree a post is not the place to discuss it.

    In regard to

    But if she continues associating with the ’pitters, she should be aware of the unfriendly reception she’ll get with people who think Atheism+ is where the ‘atheist community’ should be moving towards.

    I tackled her on a similar line in the comments on Jean’s post and she had a pretty good response.

    Oolon: so let me get this straight; I’m on the wrong side because of blogs and threads I’ve never read and because of how people I don’t know or communicate with have acted somewhere? That’s totally reasonable.

    I had spent a bit of time saying how daft it is to take sides and assign group attributes to that side and denigrate accordingly – so my fail there I thought. Surely she should get a cool reception if her ideas or comments in a particular sphere are bad? Just because she does not want to get into arguments with the nuttier section of her ‘community’ is that a problem? Jumping to attack against people because of priors and association can come across as bullying and is, I think, what turns a lot off Pharyngula.

    Now in my ideal world we would all tackle each others ideas on a given subject and not assume bad intent off the bat. I’m probably hopelessly naive – I think one of the anathema terms of the MRAs might come in here as I’m privileged to not be directly affected by almost all prejudice so its easier for me to ignore previous shit. But does that make it wrong?

  241. 241
    Xanthë, Amy of my threads

    Hi oolon,

    I have gleaned something of an idea that you’re a good contrarian, or almost by definition one of the unherdable cats that movement atheism seems to have more than its fair share of. What is a problem – and it is at the heart of Jean’s blog post in groping towards classifying the members of some amorphous ‘group 1’ and ‘group 2’ of atheists – is that the movement is a depressingly loose and ungovernable coalition that only has the unbelief in gods as a unifying common idea, and for people like me who’ve been thoroughly disgusted by the anti-feminist backlash since last year, that simply isn’t enough to establish common cause and interest anymore.

    Given that I’m transgender and feminine-identifying, hell (even if it existed outside the imagination of theists) is going to freeze over before I ally myself with the feral transphobic anti-feminists who are so well represented “down t’pit”. I have no desire to have any dealings with the ‘group 2’ people… and I am going to be very, very suspicious of anyone who as a ‘group 1’ person, thinks the ‘group 2’ people are all fine and dandy, and is on chummy first-name dealings with them… sure, it might work okay for some people, but I’m pretty sure it’s not going to work for me. As far as I thought was the case, this so-called ‘movement’ is only a voluntary association of like-minded individuals, and I really don’t want to be associated with people who don’t give a shit about women, or LGBT people, or people of colour, and so on, and will happily throw any of them under the bus. So, bring on the Atheism+. Cue the deeeeeeeeeeep rifts™.

    Oolon: so let me get this straight; I’m on the wrong side because of blogs and threads I’ve never read and because of how people I don’t know or communicate with have acted somewhere? That’s totally reasonable.

    My take on this quote of blu’s you’ve quoted: the fact that she’s good mates with the likes of liars such as Hoggle or Justicar, and happily links to their blogs? Sorry to be ‘tribalistic’ or a ‘baboon’ (such classy epithets), but I already have more than enough good reasons for why I’m not prepared to trust someone who aligns herself with the likes of them. I sort of agree with her cynical take on “that’s totally reasonable”, since shunning the ‘group 2’ people and viewing the ‘group 1’ people as untrustworthy is perhaps not scrupulously fair until the ‘group 1’ people have demonstrated bad faith. However, we’re definitely past that point with ‘group 2’ – and I’m also inclined to think we’ve actually gone past that point with some people in ‘group 1’ as well.

    Finally, on a different topic (to go slightly off-topic), you questioned whether Greg Laden’s received any harm to his reputation from the general campaign of harassment that has gone on for the last thirteen months, aimed mostly at people other than him: given that he blogs under his real name, do you really need an answer? To be candid, you saying “none there” (i.e. no harm) to Greg sounded rather similar to Richard Dawkins famously saying elevator propositions were “zero bad” – that being indicative that you’re not in any position to judge whether there has been any harm done (albeit not to the same extent that Dawkins, not being a woman, wasn’t in ideal position to judge whether elevator propositions for ‘coffee’ are intimidating for women).

  242. 242
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Finally, on a different topic (to go slightly off-topic), you questioned whether Greg Laden’s received any harm to his reputation from the general campaign of harassment that has gone on for the last thirteen months, aimed mostly at people other than him: given that he blogs under his real name, do you really need an answer?

    To elaborate quickly on that: It’s not only about Greg Laden. It’s part of the hate campaign against all of us. You can clearly see it be bluharmony trying to spin it into “it’s not OK when done to Amy but OK when done to me”. It’s meant to paint us a all as hypocrites, not just to tell something nasty about Greg

  243. 243
    pelamun, the Linguist of Doom

    Stephanie,

    I would be glad if you could edit your post to reflect my recollection of the matter:

    To the best of my memory, I did not post bluharmony’s address or even linked to it. This would have been a serious lapse of judgement on my part if I had done so.

    When Greg Laden questioned the fact that she was an attorney I went to the Washington State Bar’s website and checked as her real name was identifiable through her own Twitter account. I then reported back what I had found but did not provide the actual address, which was irrelevant to the discussion at hand (and anyone could have easily verified the fact for themselves anyway).

  244. 244
    Stephanie Zvan

    Thanks, pelamun. Noted in the post.

    Xanthe, this post was not my first reaction to discovering that bluharmony was lying about this. My first reaction was to copy her on a tweet to Chris Hallquist, pointing out that it was a lie. She responded with three tweets:

    “T’was in the comments of one of 3 hate posts about me (w/my WSBA info). He wouldn’t remove it until I contacted Ed.”

    “And that’s the whole truth. Much better, right Steph?”

    “Please stop accusing me of lying and making further libelous comments. I’m not hiding behind a pseudonym. Thanks.”

    So, not only did she start with the next tier of lies when she discovered that someone knew the truth, but she publicly accused me of libel. As I’ve explained elsewhere in this thread, that’s serious behavior for an attorney to be indulging in falsely. Once I put the information in this post together, I tweeted her again to let her know I had the documentation and ask whether she wanted to reconsider what she’d just said. Instead of doing so, she accused me of threatening her. This was hardly my first choice either. I would much rather see her fix the damage she’s done on her own, but she declined.

    Beyond that, I haven’t gone out of my way to publicize this post. I usually tweet my posts. I didn’t with this one. However, the usual suspects on the #FTBullies hashtag did, both “group 2″ and parts of the ostensible “group 1″. That effectively puts an end to spreading this particular lie and the other ones in the pdfs by anyone who wants to maintain their credibility. They’ve documented for me that they’ve all seen the information that these are lies. If they continue to pass the lies on, or if they continue to allow bluharmony to repeat those lies in their presence unchallenged, they are now complicit. On the record.

  245. 245
    bluharmony

    Pelanum, you provided a direct link to my home address within the text of your comment. It was a breach of judgment and exactly as wrong as Justin doing the same to Amy. Greg, who was moderating comments at the time, approved the post, and at the end of the thread, stated explicitly that he would not take the thread down, making asking futile. Since I didn’t, as far as I recall, talk about Rebecca after that, there was nothing I could do but contact Ed. In sum, I did not lie, because I never claimed that Greg was the one who posted the address/link, and the address/link was there for the entire duration of the post. My fault is apparently that I didn’t correct some assumptions in blog comments, but it was irrelevant to me to who did it, and I wasn’t trying to incriminate anyone. What I was attempting to show was the disparity in reactions. The post was eventually taken down, willingly, by Greg, and I am appreciative of that.

    I did say Greg posted my accidental & automatic linked-in invite, and used it to make fun of me, which he did in his third attack-thread specifically about me. This appeared after months had passed without comment on the topic from me, and at the same time that my mother — my only living relative — had a serious stroke. I asked for Ed’s help, and that post came down too. And that covers everything, I think. I have to wonder, given how insignificant I am, why so many attack posts? Also, I’m sorry if my mother’s stroke is annoying to you, but it was a tragedy to me.

    Pelanum, I didn’t want to say that you were the one who did it earlier, because you were not here to defend yourself. Now you are. It was you and I couldn’t be any more certain. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to explain that the direct embedded link was there for the duration of the post. As you well know, anyone could find Amy’s public business address in a few seconds too. The fact is that Greg suggested someone find out more about me, and it was you who did and reported what you found, including my home address. You would not have been able to do so, had Greg not posted my full name, which you did not know. Further, my home address has never been my business address — it was simply a mailing address for bar notices.

    Oolon, I link to blogs on both sides of the issue, as many do. In fact, I’m trying to collect as many relevant blogs as I can in my blogroll (on many different topics). And the fact that I tried to reconcile the parties at one point and thought that we can get past this conflict was naive on my part. I no longer think so now.

    Greg, I believe you about how you state your dismissal occurred as much as I believe the official version. In other words, I don’t know since I wasn’t there, and I’m not going to judge. Moreover, the same people who claim that Ed lied about how TFoot was dismissed are saying that he’s telling the truth about how you were dismissed. That seems inconsistent to me.

    This will be posted elsewhere, if it does not get posted here.

  246. 246
    Stephanie Zvan

    …the address/link was there for the entire duration of the post.

    Maria, aratina has already said he has documentation that this is a lie. Why are you repeating it?

    It was you and I couldn’t be any more certain.

    Prove it.

    You would not have been able to do so, had Greg not posted my full name, which you did not know.

    You’re on record in these posts as saying Greg must have known because it was such a trivial thing to find out. Which is the lie?

  247. 247
    oolon

    @Xanthe and Giliell, Greg, FtBs and damage: No I’m sure damage has been done overall – sorry it came across poorly but I meant specifically in relation to the example in this post. The justification for dragging Maria across the coals is the damage from this specific incident of address posting. It was also part of my point that it seemed the overall damage was being used as an excuse to over-react on a particular minor incident (IMO – and again as one without all the history that is what it can look like). Gregs only response about damage was to allude to the overall campaign and I’d definitely not say no damage there — although from my position it has overwhelmingly reflected poorly on them not FtBs or Greg.

    Giliells point about how Maria used the lie (or misunderstanding or exaggeration) of the address posting incident to stab at Amy is absolutely correct. You cannot compare responses even if the situation was identical – even if the context was identical and she had as much hate from misogynists – it still would obviously elicit a different response as Maria is not as high profile and is not considered a friend. So the point FtBs thought it ‘unfair’ in Amys case and not hers is not really of much relevance imo.

    Xanthe, finally I’d say yeah some of the extremes over there are so bad its hard to believe they are serious at times (My few encounters Hoggle are his comments and he somehow manages to ooze in written form). Tribalism is a problem for me, as you say I’m contrarian, so when someone says I need to be in group 1 or group 2 my natural response is to try and create group 0 or 3 and sit there looking smug. I do feel a bit of that tendency in the slimepitters – FtBs is trying to define ‘the movement’ and I don’t like it so I’ll throw my toys out of the pram. For what its worth I support atheism+, it will differentiate from the slimepit types who cannot argue FtBs is destroying *the* movement any more.

  248. 248
    bluharmony

    I said Pelanum didn’t know it, Greg did. I can’t prove it. Greg has the draft, and you admit seeing the address. Nothing about the post has changed and given the context, he’s the only one who could have done it. Greg doesn’t remember changing the post, and I remember it was the person who responded to Greg asking that someone find out if I was an attorney. That was Pelanum. If Aratina has the direct screencap, I’m sure it shows the link.

    Or are you now saying you were lying when you said you saw my address? Seriously, your shifting allegations make my head spin.

  249. 249
    pelamun, the Linguist of Doom

    As I said, to the best of my memory.

    If I did, I would apologise, but I will not take your word for it. If you have screenshots, post them.

    Why can I not take your word for it? For instance, this time, you failed even to read my statement in which I said I knew your full name not through Greg Laden, but through your own Twitter account. Go look up your profile, it still has your full name on it.

  250. 250
    Raging Bee

    I’m obviously missing a lot of the history here so given that I’ll give up on my Maria might not be lying line.

    How magnanimous of you to admit you didn’t know what you were talking about from day one.

    Just saying that to an outsider without all the history it can certainly seem as if claiming malicious lies is hyperbolic.

    There will always be outsiders who don’t understand the full story — regardless of what the story is, what it’s about, or who is telling it. That’s pretty much a tautology. Why do you even bring it up?

    However I totally agree a post is not the place to discuss it.

    Funny — you only agree to that AFTER your own attempts to discuss it get debunked.

    Oh, and you still haven’t told me which blogs you’re reading that confuse Greg Laden and Tfoot. Which means you still have zero credibility.

  251. 251
    Stephanie Zvan

    I can’t prove it. Greg has the draft, and you admit seeing the address. Nothing about the post has changed and given the context, he’s the only one who could have done it.

    Lie. Two lies, in fact. There’s a pdf of the post and comment thread attached to this post. Your address is not there, even as a link, so it has changed. Also, pelamun is not the only person who could have done it. More than one person can comment on a single topic. Whatever was there is gone. It could just have easily been another comment.

    Also, previously you said:

    Jason, my address was up for months, and there was nothing I could do about it.

    Now you say there was only a link. Which is the lie?

    Also, yes, I saw an address for you. I can’t tell you whether I saw it in the thread or clicked a link, and I said so in the post. What I can say is that you’ve now told two different stories about what happened.

    And again, stop repeating the lie that you couldn’t ask Greg to take the first post down. The second post presented here as a pdf quotes you asking Greg to take the post down–just not because your address is in it.

  252. 252
    bluharmony

    Fine Stephanie, you’re right about everything. I concede and don’t want to argue anymore. I apologize for all my past sins and any that I may commit in the future. And I promise that I will not be blogging about you.

  253. 253
    bluharmony

    P.S. It was an embedded link that wouldn’t show up in your draft.

  254. 254
    bluharmony

    That is how I remember it, anyway. You don’t need to publish this. Or you may, whatever.

  255. 255
    Stephanie Zvan

    P.S. It was an embedded link that wouldn’t show up in your draft.

    No, it’s not. There’s a visible link in a comment on the very first page of the pdf. Stop the lies, Maria.

  256. 256
    Stephanie Zvan

    And Maria just sent me an email response to comment #255 to say, “If you say so.” That’s soooo not how truth works. FFS.

  257. 257
    bluharmony

    But you do realize that now you’re saying that it could have been Greg who did it, of course. Since he, according to you, changed the file. Your inconsistency, shifting goal posts, false accusations, and general weaseling are amazing. Your response to everything is, OMG, lie!

  258. 258
    Stephanie Zvan

    Which is it, Maria? Was it pelamun, as you’re absolutely certain of? Or is it now Greg, so you can try to hurt him some more? And do you understand that no one is going to believe you anymore if you point at Greg? You’ve been quite clear here that you never did think it was him. What do you think suggesting now that you might say it was is going to get you in terms of credibility? All it does is demonstrate that you don’t care what the truth is if you want to hurt someone. Not that we needed more proof. You’ve been wonderful here in that regard, and I thank you for it. You made putting this lie to rest incredibly easy.

    Also, Greg didn’t change the file “according to” me. He changed the file according to you, because you say the address or link (or whatever you’re going to say next) was there. He changed it very early, according to aratina’s files, which he just sent to both of us, which puts the lie to your repeated claim that you had to ask Ed to have your address taken down.

    “OMG, lie!” isn’t my response to everything, Maria. It’s my response to your comtinued, documented lies.

  259. 259
    oolon

    @RagingBee,

    Oh, and you still haven’t told me which blogs you’re reading that confuse Greg Laden and Tfoot. Which means you still have zero credibility.

    I think you are confused, the fact that I am an anonymous commenter with a daft pseudonym on someone else’s blog means I have no credibility. Unfortunately that is something we both share, try to keep up :-P

  260. 260
    bluharmony

    Oh, so now you’re saying you didn’t see the address? Okey. Obviously I don’t think it was Greg, I’m just indicating that the blog author has the power to change the narrative.

  261. 261
    Stephanie Zvan

    As I’ve asked before, please stop acting like an idiot.

  262. 262
    Raging Bee

    @252: What a ridiculous crybaby. Does she really think she’s fooling anyone? And the fact that she keeps on sniping after “conceding,” only makes her sound even more ridiculous.

    Oh well, at least she managed to post more than three comments without mentioning coffee makers in “downtown Europe.” That’s progress, of a sort. (And what the hell does she mean by that? Europe isn’t just one town…and while I’m correcting uncommon misconceptions, I probably should add that the London Underground is not a political movement.)

  263. 263
    Raging Bee

    Also, I’m sorry if my mother’s stroke is annoying to you, but it was a tragedy to me.

    Who the hell EVER said your mother’s stroke was “annoying?” The only thing we find annoying is YOU, especially when you use your personal tragedies to gain sympathy here after making a total ass of yourself.

    Cut the immature self-pity and deal with your personal tragedies in your own space. I know I’m not privy to your personal circumstances, but I’m pretty sure that your asinine conduct here is not helping you in any way.

  264. 264
    bluharmony

    What files are you talking about, Stephanie? I never received any.

  265. 265
    Stephanie Zvan

    Then email aratina and ask for them. The email says it’s also addressed to you, but he bcc’ed the email addresses themselves.

  266. 266
    Aratina Cage

    I emailed a zip file with copies of both the K.M.A. post and the I-get-email post of Greg’s from October 30th to Stephanie (gmail) and blu (hotmail). HTH

  267. 267
    bluharmony

    Thanks, Aratina. You are honest and good. I can’t tell from those files if there’s hyperlinked text within a comment. Is there a way to do that without a screencap?

    P.S. Stephanie was kind enough to forward the files to me, and I see that you sent them to both of us.

  268. 268
    Aratina Cage

    @bluharmony
    If you open the file called index.html inside each of those folders, the pages should display in your web browser and all the hyperlinks should be colored blue and active so you can click on them or hover the mouse over them to see where they go.

  269. 269
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Aratina, would it be OK if I emailed you? If so, where should I send it?

  270. 270
    Aratina Cage

    Yeah, of course SC. :) A public link to my email address is here.

  271. 271
    bluharmony

    Having seen Aratina’s files, all I can say is this:

    I am no longer certain the Pelamun posted the address/link, and I can only conclude that Greg did remove it at some point. As such, I sincerely apologize for remembering the course of events incorrectly, and specifically apologize to Pelamun and Greg for anything said to the contrary by or because of me. I reiterate that I was upset when the address was posted, and didn’t realize that it was at some point removed from the thread.

    Thank you, Aratina, for trying to set the record straight. I appreciate your integrity.

  272. 272
    Ace of Sevens

    To Oolon, this is important, even if you think bluharmony isn’t important enough to address because lots of people have been repeating it as part of a sustained campaign to discredit Greg.

  273. 273
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    A public link to my email address is here.

    Thanks! Hmm… That’s not working for me. Any way you could write it out here without making it a link?

  274. 274
    Stephanie Zvan

    Or I can send an email hooking the two of you up if you’re using a good address here, SC.

  275. 275
  276. 276
    oolon

    @Ace of Sevens, fair enough if you really think it is damaging. Just me but I’d only heard the PTSD one, male brain damage one, stalking Abbie one and trying to get Abbie fired one – this was new and didn’t seem to rank particularly highly. Obviously not for me to decide, but seeing petrol being poured on the FTBullies fire I thought I’d add my opinion on it.

    I see Maria has apologised for her lie… Or misunderstanding / misremembering depending on how charitable you want to be. Everyone can just link to her comment wherever there is a reference to this address debacle now?

  277. 277
    Stephanie Zvan

    oolon, don’t repeat the lies here. Better yet, don’t repeat them anywhere. Greg did not try to trigger PTSD in anyone. He did not stalk Abbie in any way, and he did not try to get her fired.

  278. 278
    pelamun, the Linguist of Doom

    Bluharmony,

    apology accepted. I’ve seen the files now for myself (thx, Aratina) and am convinced my recollection was and is correct.

  279. 279
    oolon

    @Stephanie, You do know the Phawrongula page on Greg comes up in the first page when searching for his name on Google. Many, many accusations there in great detail.

    Surely we should repeat the accusations and mock them since he is either the FtBs Dr Evil or somewhat exaggerated about online?

    Any protestation they are unmentionable and should not be repeated will be considered a challenge by the slimepitters.

  280. 280
    Entrained

    Jason@36
    Jason Thibeault says:
    August 22, 2012 at 3:49 pm
    Keeping your criticisms of a person factual, tigzy, is kinda fundamental to being part of any skeptical community.

    Coming from you on Stephanie’s blog, this is beyond laughable. (see the entire Lee Delay/Del Mar/Dr. Buzzo/DJ) story and your comments based on absolutely incorrect dissemination of the information.
    You weren’t skeptical, you weren’t a critical thinker and as a matter of fact the only thing you are and were is completely wrong.
    You guys made your minds up and went with it, and you were wrong, huge.
    Really Jason, what a joke.

  281. 281
    Stephanie Zvan

    You weren’t skeptical, you weren’t a critical thinker and as a matter of fact the only thing you are and were is completely wrong.

    So, Entrained, are you trying to say that Lee made no report of harassment to D.J. and TAM?

  282. 282
    Entrained

    What I am saying is someone told a story you all took as true. You didn’t doubt it, you didn’t question it, you didn’t look at that facts skeptically even though the story changed first by the guy on Facebook who originally posted it and Lee’s version with one of their original Facebook posts deleted.
    The point, the hotel investigated the original Buzzo issue.
    It occurred at the Del Mar. That is not TAM. That is the hotel space, not the TAM space which is clearly defined. The hotel does not want or allow any entity other than hotel staff to investigate issues that occur in hotel space. They did. No findings.
    You made a point that DJ had leverage. You were wrong, he had none.
    And regardless, no findings.
    No findings as in they looked at his sim card and there were no upskirt photos. No findings.
    No findings as in they looked at his movements on their video prior to the complaint. No findings.
    They watched his movements in real time. No findings.
    In other words, nothing, nada, zip, zero,zilch.
    And this guy got crushed on line. For doing nothing other than carrying a camera too low. But a good deal of our skeptical community without one solid shred of evidence or proof believed a story. The only thing missing were torches, pitchforks and windmills.
    All that happened because someone wasn’t happy with an answer. Oh, and a guy who had very serious alkegations made aginst him that couldn’t be validated or prooved got vilified.
    And you ask about DJ and a report, not one word if the story was valid that appeared on just about every blog. There was nothing for DJ to investigate as the alledeged incident did not occur at TAM, so a report would have been frivolous as it had already been investigated by the hotel with no findings. And no harassment, but don’t let the facts get in the way.

  283. 283
    Ace of Sevens

    @282: Do you have any evidence for any of this? SIM cards don’t store photos, just phone ID data and it was a camera, not a phone. If we assume you mean SD card, where are you getting your data the contents of the card were checked and he was cleared? Also, what does that have to do with this thread?

  284. 284
    Entrained

    @283
    Of course, all of it.
    Yes, sd card, thought that’s what I put.
    A professional courtesy was extended to me.

    Jason@36
    Jason Thibeault says:
    August 22, 2012 at 3:49 pm
    Keeping your criticisms of a person factual, tigzy, is kinda fundamental to being part of any Skeptical community.

    This is based on Jason’s response above since he and several bloggers didn’t seem to be advocates of this philosophy.

  285. 285
    Stephanie Zvan

    And you ask about DJ and a report, not one word if the story was valid that appeared on just about every blog. There was nothing for DJ to investigate as the alledeged incident did not occur at TAM, so a report would have been frivolous as it had already been investigated by the hotel with no findings.

    I don’t give the tiniest of damns whether you think there should have been a report or not. D.J. told the world there were none. That isn’t true. That is what I reported.

    And no harassment, but don’t let the facts get in the way.

    Actually, you’ll see that there were incidents besides the camera mentioned as harassment. They’ve been a part of Lee’s story from moment one. Those have been corroborated by others. I’m not sure what those particular facts are supposed to get in the way of.

  286. 286
    Entrained

    Go back and read what I wrote as a reaction to Jason’s post @280. My issue was the lack of skepticism and critical thinking involved in the blogosphere regarding the recounting of this issue and ultimately the vilification of Buzzo. For purposes of clarity, I have no clue who that guy is and never met or communicated with him. Your response to me is whether DJ was accurate in his statement. How convenient to try to change the subject but… let’s parse like you do…

    Those Meddling Kids
    June 14, 2012 at 7:52 pm Stephanie Zvan
    Well, first it was:

    It should be said that there has never been a report filed of sexual harassment at TAM to my knowledge and there have been zero reports of harassment at the TAMs we’ve put on while I’ve been at JREF.

    Then Ashley became inconvenient. She could be managed, though:

    In her blog post and in further comments, Ashley says she didn’t feel like the harassment was worth reporting to JREF staff or hotel staff at the time, nor did she nor anyone else mention it in one of the TAM attendee surveys.

    Except that she stayed inconvenient. So it changed:

    …no one reported to JREF staff or hotel staff any incident of assault or sexual harassment at our speakers reception last year, and no JREF staff were told about nor knew about any such incident until last week.

    (Ashley stayed inconvenient? She by her own words never made a report till almost a year later in which she posted in her blog. Just to ensure I understand your perspective, TAM had a written policy in place that was readily available, no report was filed and it’s DJ’s fault and he is less than truthful.)

    And now there is a new inconvenience. [Trigger warning for covert predatory behavior and absolute lack of support for a reporting victim.]

    Though I was less traumatized and more seriously angry I am one of the people to report the upskirt photo thing along with multiple other incidents by the same person the last day at tam last year. We spoke to dj about it during the event, he said we would hear back on what was going to be done and never did. We followed up on it for a number of months and nothing happened so we gave up. Its part of what has very much frustrated me about tam and other such events is that even when we reported harassment we only got lip service on something actually being done. I know dj is busy and I don’t expect him to be the one to take care of things but I do expect there to be some response from the jref more than vacuous head patting.

    And it is most inconveniently corroborated.

    Act II:  TAM 2011

    Two women approach me and another conferee.  They are pale and trembling.  A man with a camera on the end of a telescoping monopod has been attempting to surreptitiously take photos up their skirts.[1]  Yes, he was attending TAM.  They had taken concerns to conference organizers and got little satisfaction.  Hotel security confiscated the camera.  I later learned the individual was well-known and had been complained about in previous years, and yet there he was again.

    Also, it’s not as though the behavior of this guy wasn’t well known. [ETA: Not just well known, but mentioned before in this sprawling conversation. I didn't realize this pertained to TAM2011.]

    Buzzo’s upskirt cam.
    My Opinion: Should have been reported to the JREF, and he should have been banned. Extremely out of line and also criminal. I could see how this would keep women away. One guy like that is too many.

    Only it was reported, and followed up on, and discussed in the forum. That leaves me with just two questions:

    What will the next description of what was known and unknown be?
    What’s really under that mask?
    [1] The author of this piece is asking that it be clarified that he did not directly observe the behavior with the camera.

    (Except, it was investigated by the hotel security and he didn’t do anything. Nothing. So this guy gets beat on the internet like crazy for what? An allegation that was investigated without findings.)

    Jason’s point in his post and I agree with him completely, is let’s get our facts straight because it’s fundamental to being a skeptic. That did not happen here regarding these stories. That was the inconvenience. You don’t give the tiniest damn about whether a story was told throughout the internet that decimated a human being which was refuted through investigation. None of this diminishes that the folks that made the report were upset by something. Turns out he didn’t do what they thought. They did the right thing, it got reported and investigated. No findings.
    You are so damned worried about what DJ said or did you completely missed my point. You guys screwed up and hurt someone, horribly. Now you know.
    You worry about whether a report was accurately filed with no concern whatsoever for your responsibility in piling on.
    And then you say other instances were corroborated, well maybe but the upskirt was corroborated too right? And regardless, this upskirt issue is completely wrong. So what are you saying, even if you got this upskirt issue wrong we’ll go best out of 3?
    Where was you critical thought?
    Where was your skepticism?
    Where is your humanity?

  287. 287
    Stephanie Zvan

    Yeah, not having a discussion with someone who doesn’t think I’m human. You’re done here, especially since you’re not pointing to anything I said that was wrong. Enjoy your life.

  288. 288
    skeptifem

    My issue was the lack of skepticism and critical thinking involved in the blogosphere regarding the recounting of this issue and ultimately the vilification of Buzzo.

    Lack of skepticism? Excuse me? Do you not remember how many women, who had actually met dr buzz0 at various TAMs, discussed his serial harassment of women? I’m one of them and there were a whole bunch more showing up to threads here and other places online. These were women I had also met at TAM previously, some who had worked for the JREF or written articles for them in the past discussed how gross he was. How many women need to tell you that he serially harassed them before it passes your bullshit test? We aren’t talking about multiple witnesses for an extraordinary or supernatural event, we are talking about multiple witnesses to an every day event.

  1. 289
    Reasons Not to Sign a Petition | Almost Diamonds

    [...] that’s this highly ironic Maria Maltseva. #bbpBox_252278736760733696 a { text-decoration:none; color:#0084B4; }#bbpBox_252278736760733696 [...]

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